NIESR shows up immigration lies of state and left ..

[ViolentPanda]

I think they are quite representative of the whinging no credible alternative left that most people on U75 are part of..

How so?

I mean, it's easy for you to say, but I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion, because from where I'm sitting there's little connection between the SWP and any putative "left" on Urban.

Still, I'm sure you'll have no problem convincing me of the essential accuracy of your claim.

And as opportunists go they dont really cut it...As they have never made much of their opportunities...

One doesn't have to be a successful opportunist to be an opportunist nonetheless. I'm sure even you can remember several occasions on which the SWP has acted opportunistically.

 

[tbaldwin]

How so?

I mean, it's easy for you to say, but I'd like to know how you arrived at that conclusion, because from where I'm sitting there's little connection between the SWP and any putative "left" on Urban.

Still, I'm sure you'll have no problem convincing me of the essential accuracy of your claim.

One doesn't have to be a successful opportunist to be an opportunist nonetheless. I'm sure even you can remember several occasions on which the SWP has acted opportunistically.

Points that people on U75 by and large agree with the SWP.....
1 Capitalism is bad.
2 New Labour are bad.
3 The Masses cant be trusted,they need leadership.....
4 Giving more money to H/E is a good thing
5 Capital punishment is wrong.
6 Iraq is VERY IMPORTANT
7 Palestine is very IMPORTANT
8 The Congo and Sudan er much much less important.
9 Tax the Rich
10 More money for Public services.
11 Immigration is something to be defended.
12 If only people were more educated........

Things that people by and large disagree with the SWP on
1 That the SWP leadership has all the answers.


Yeah i can think of a couple of occasions when the SWP tried to make something of an opportunity....

 

[ViolentPanda]

Points that people on U75 by and large agree with the SWP.....
1 Capitalism is bad.
2 New Labour are bad.
3 The Masses cant be trusted,they need leadership.....
4 Giving more money to H/E is a good thing
5 Capital punishment is wrong.
6 Iraq is VERY IMPORTANT
7 Palestine is very IMPORTANT
8 The Congo and Sudan er much much less important.
9 Tax the Rich
10 More money for Public services.
11 Immigration is something to be defended.
12 If only people were more educated........

Things that people by and large disagree with the SWP on
1 That the SWP leadership has all the answers.

You don't do yourself any favours, do you?

I asked for you to convince me of the accuracy of your claim, not to recite a list of your hobby-horses, bugbears and prejudices.

Yeah i can think of a couple of occasions when the SWP tried to make something of an opportunity....

Buy yourself a dictionary and look up "opportunism". You seem to have it mixed up with "opportunity".

 

[audiotech]

How is calling for workers controlling the world (the SWP position) in comparison to an elite, capitalist hierarchy running it a top-down approach?

 

[JHE]

...calling for workers controlling the world (the SWP position)...

The workers are to run the world under the tutelage of The Party - i.e., the Social Workers are to run the world.

A fat chance! Even the daft Trots themselves half-realise that - so now they've gone bonkers and are hoping to piggy-back to power on the back of militant Islam.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The workers are to run the world under the tutelage of The Party - i.e., the Social Workers are to run the world.

A fat chance! Even the daft Trots themselves half-realise that - so now they've gone bonkers and are hoping to piggy-back to power on the back of militant Islam.

 

[audiotech]

The workers are to run the world under the tutelage of The Party - i.e., the Social Workers are to run the world.

A fat chance! Even the daft Trots themselves half-realise that - so now they've gone bonkers and are hoping to piggy-back to power on the back of militant Islam.

Militant Islam is about to take power? Where?

 

[JHE]

Militant Islam is about to take power? Where?

It's already in power in some places.

Not so funny for the commies strung up by the 'slamists.

 

[xenon]

Nobody's talking about the role of the trade unions here. Thee TGWU seem to be taking the idea of organising Polish workers seriously - appointing Ewa Jasiewicz (spelling?) as a f/t organiser in N W England for example.
Like with Irish workers in the past, the best way to get them into the union is to ensure they have the same rights, wages and conditions as all other workers on site.
Polish migrant workers are only finding work because local workers won't do those jobs (working in abbatoirs etc) for crap money.
There's an argument for a EU-wide minimum wage to stop capital relocating to cheap labour areas such as Slovakia, Poland. But that's probably for another thread.

This ultimately IMO is the best way to prevent mass migration and emmegration of the poor. Too many businesses don't care where they're unskilled, low paid work force have to live and the effects of large numbers of peple coming into an area.

Obviously racist agenders shouldn't dictate immigration policies. But neither should the needs of business always take president. By restricting numbers from Rhumania and Bulgaria the government conceid the free market can't be left to rule this area any more.

 

[ViolentPanda]

By restricting numbers from Rhumania and Bulgaria the government conceid the free market can't be left to rule this area any more.

Odd how they didn't put their feet down until it was two countries with large Roma minorities that were about to undertake accession to the EU though.

 

[tbaldwin]

You don't do yourself any favours, do you?

.

I consider myself well and truly told off....

You Authoritarian you!

 

[tbaldwin]

How is calling for workers controlling the world (the SWP position) in comparison to an elite, capitalist hierarchy running it a top-down approach?

I stopped believing in Father Christmas a few years back...And i dont think that the SWPs claim to believe in workers control is any more believable...

The SWP think the workers should be in control only if they first control the workers.

 

[audiotech]

I stopped believing in Father Christmas a few years back...And i dont think that the SWPs claim to believe in workers control is any more believable...

The SWP think the workers should be in control only if they first control the workers.

Funny that, because I've never believed that the SWP could control the mass of workers.

 

[audiotech]

It's already in power in some places.

Not so funny for the commies strung up by the 'slamists.

Tis true.

A number of members of various left parties, and liberals come to that, suffered that fate before, during and after the Iranian revolution in '79

 

[tbaldwin]

Funny that, because I've never believed that the SWP could control the mass of workers.

The point is that when Lefties talk about workers power etc etc it rings very hollow when they are opposed to what they might describe as populist views on crime and immigration etc...
There brand of unpopulist socialism is for the true believers only.

 

[audiotech]

The point is that when Lefties talk about workers power etc etc it rings very hollow when they are opposed to what they might describe as populist views on crime and immigration etc...
There brand of unpopulist socialism is for the true believers only.

 

[durruti02]

The SWP are not representative of the left.

The only thing they're representative of is political opportunism.

so who else is?? .. they are the biggest party biggest paper sales .. and critically the most known to ordinary people through their paper sales at shopping centres etc and for more poltical people or people on strike or at the town hall about whatever .. they are the annoying parasites people see ..

miltant have similarly done themselves few favours publically in the past but possibly have better pr ..

what is sad is many and i suspect MOST sw are fine with day to day issues ..

so even if people have little contact with the left when they do it is usually negative .. e.g. again outside of day to day TU isuues

 

[ViolentPanda]

so who else is?? .. they are the biggest party biggest paper sales .. and critically the most known to ordinary people through their paper sales at shopping centres etc and for more poltical people or people on strike or at the town hall about whatever .. they are the annoying parasites people see ..

miltant have similarly done themselves few favours publically in the past but possibly have better pr ..

what is sad is many and i suspect MOST sw are fine with day to day issues ..

so even if people have little contact with the left when they do it is usually negative .. e.g. again outside of day to day TU isuues

The problem is that there isn't any over-arching left organisation, just loads of factions. Even the Labour party made life almost impossible for the various caucuses that sprang up, with "party unity" ending up meaning homogenisation and centrism.

As for the Swappies, they may be well-known, bt they're most well-known, even by the public, as nuisances and political opportunists, ready to jump on any bandwagon that rolls by (and then try to sell papers to the passengers).

Most SWs are fine on day to day issues, and as individuals, but bear in mind these are people who willingly joined an organisation where policy is mostly by diktat.

 

[In Bloom]

hi in bloom .. i agree .. i do not think we should be arguing fro immigation controls .. i think all our emphasis should be on employment/ recruitment .. by demanding employers recruit locally at proper wages ..

I agree that the solution lies in the workplace on this one, though I'm not sure what you mean by "demanding employers recruit locally", how would that work?

re the left .. check out what the swp has said over the last year .. virtually nothing ... on a subject you can not get away from hearing people moan about .. and then when they do ... they have stated there is NOT a material issue and that the main thing the left should do is challenge racism! ( though i am not saying we should do that as well!)

There is an element of that, I think, which is unsurprising from groups like the SWP, they don't listen to what anybody else has to say because of course, they already have all the answers.

 

[Giles]

I know alot of the guys i grew up with on the estates of north London
Can get fuck all work that pays above £40 a day, when a few years ago they could take home £75 for 10hrs

I'm talking about guys that always worked in the past but can't have a real life living in london on the wages being given out now

And no one gives a fuck ,and if they complain they are branded racist

ah well sucks to be working class

These people maybe need to aspire to something more than unskilled shit-shovellers, then.

Giles..

 

[stevepinker]

These people maybe need to aspire to something more than unskilled shit-shovellers, then.

Giles..

Does that apply to people working in offices pushing paper ,Laying blocks takes about as much brain power/skills

And calling them shit-shoveller ... Well you real are a prick

 

[In Bloom]

I'd just ignore Giles if I were you, mate, he's a nasty little toff who thinks he's being clever.

He barely warrents contempt, never mind the exact response he's looking for.

 

[Giles]

Does that apply to people working in offices pushing paper ,Laying blocks takes about as much brain power/skills

And calling them shit-shoveller ... Well you real are a prick

I'm just pointing out that given that there ARE shedloads of people turning up in the UK from Eastern Europe and other places, desperate for work, that maybe the winning move is to try to rise above having to compete with the new arrivals, because if you do you will inevitably lose.

Giles..

 

[ViolentPanda]

These people maybe need to aspire to something more than unskilled shit-shovellers, then.

Giles..

I aspire to hear that you've been twatted round the head with a shit shovel, you pompous cunt.

 

[tbaldwin]

Thats your line of arguement now is it....An ex member of the SWP who turned into a bit of a Tory twat....Not exactly suprising.....

 

[Giles]

I aspire to hear that you've been twatted round the head with a shit shovel, you pompous cunt.

Charming.


Giles..

 

[ViolentPanda]

Charming.


Giles..

It wasn't intended to be "charming", you odious gimp.

 

[bluestreak]

i have a question.

what are the working classes doing to protect themselves?

are they forming labour unions of some sort? are they seeking deals with immigrant labour that gives them powers over the bosses? are they trying to organise their way out? are they playing along with the capitalists' games and trying to offer better value for money? are they doing something that i haven't thought of yet? or are they bitching about the foreigners and expecting them to fuck off back where they came from so we can exploit them from a distance?

because while i know there are a few individuals and groups trying to organise, for the most part it seems that the solution to this is that we should restrict immigration and leave the foreign working classes to fend for themselves in their own countries. as long as the british working classes are willing to exploit foreign labour themselves within the capitalist system how can they expect anyone to have sympathy with their plight? recently the working classes in this country are seeing the real cost of their own cheap materialism.... they should learn from this and use it to organise and protect themselves, not attack fellow w/c trying to survive just like them.

 

[Giles]

It wasn't intended to be "charming", you odious gimp.

If all you have to say is to resort to insults and obscenities, its not much of a point of view.

Giles..

 

[ViolentPanda]

If all you have to say is to resort to insults and obscenities, its not much of a point of view.

Giles..

You're right.

To do so lowers me to the same level as the person who wrote "These people maybe need to aspire to something more than unskilled shit-shovellers, then".

Doesn't it?