"New World Order" announced on Independent, Guardian and Daily Mail front pages.

[TheDave]

It always amuses me when politicians use the phrase 'New World Order' because I always imagine some fruitloops in a basement somewhere getting upset because it's supposed to be a conspiracy. The bare faced cheek of it all.

 

[shagnasty]

One thing that is coming about is the shift of power from west to east .countries like japan, korea,china are beginning to have much more sway.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Oh I dunno, threads like these could be a good way of getting into the finer detail of the reality, and contrasting it with the comic book version.

That's all Im genuinely trying to achieve here. This thing is out in the open, we need to discuss what it actually is and pull fact apart from fiction.

Im interested in the rest of what you siad and will get back to you on specific points as the thread develops.

My starting point at the moment is the perception that the multinational bail-outs represent a consolidation of assets and power into the hands of the small bunch of people who did so much to facilitate the scandalous operations of international capitals (especially in the form of the derivatives fraud imo)

From there, we can choose or not to look at institutions that are carrying out this agenda and what their past stated goals are.

It's time to get rational about this, and I appreciate people here making the effort. I wouldnt post here if I didnt respect the majority of peoples opinions or didnt think I couldnt learn from them.

 

[elbows]

eh

I wasnt one, I was a tinfoil hatter, but I lent my hat to some bloke calling himself Elvis.

If you think this is a justification for believing NWO conspiracy bullshit, or that the words of Brown somehow vindicate that oversimplified worldview, then you need more than a tinfoil hat.

The suckers are not those who are sleepwalking whilst evil conspiracies take place, but those who would swap the chance to engage in meaningful institutional analysis, for a simple narrative that does a disservice to all.

Carry on quacking, hopeless builders of your own prison of ignorance.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

One thing that is coming about is the shift of power from west to east .countries like japan, korea,china are beginning to have much more sway.

But the increasingly powerful financial institutions are not of any specific country. Yes, the US is diminished in power somewhat and elbows is right that this will piss of the US right.

But to think the power wielded by countries as you mention will actually give improved long term condidtions to their masses is highly optimisitc, being polite.

I think it is natural that "leaders" might see themselves as more loyal to the "leader" class than to the genuine interests of their people

This group are consolidating power before our eyes, we need to keep an eye on them and if they operate against our interests we need to continue building our struggles to resist.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

elbows

The suckers are not those who are sleepwalking whilst evil conspiracies take place, but those who would swap the chance to engage in meaningful institutional analysis, for a simple narrative that does a disservice to all[/

That in itself is simplistic. The operation of supra national politics, seen and unseen, is immensely complex.

Those that do not look into this stuff will wonder for generations why their taxes dont seem to achieve anything (it's filling the derivative blackhole etc.) Why in advanced societies it still seems neccesary for so many to work themselves to the bone to barely survive. Their grandchildren will have vast areas of their lives surveilled by the state through stuff like NIR (if we allow it). This is all incontrivertable fact.

I accept in these crucial times that it is essential "conspiracy theorists" be more rational than many of them often are.

But I also think the left need to analyse things a bit beyond "oh, it's just capitalism", which is the basic arguement I have often come across in these discussions.

 

[shagnasty]

But the increasingly powerful financial institutions are not of any specific country. Yes, the US is diminished in power somewhat and elbows is right that this will piss of the US right.

But to think the power wielded by countries as you mention will actually give improved long term condidtions to their masses is highly optimisitc, being polite.

I think it is natural that "leaders" might see themselves as more loyal to the "leader" class than to the genuine interests of their people

This group are consolidating power before our eyes, we need to keep an eye on them and if they operate against our interests we need to continue building our struggles to resist.

I have been thinking that the real power lies with people who though are associated with certain countries could easily be of no country after all capital is their god their country.and elbows as usual writes a lot of sense

 

[elbows]

That in itself is simplistic. The operation of supra national politics, seen and unseen, is immensely complex.

Those that do not look into this stuff will wonder for generations why their taxes dont seem to achieve anything (it's filling the derivative blackhole etc.) Why in advanced societies it still seems neccesary for so many to work themselves to the bone to barely survive. Their grandchildren will have vast areas of their lives surveilled by the state through stuff like NIR (if we allow it). This is all incontrivertable fact.

I dont wonder that about tax at all, it seems pretty clear where my tax goes. Some of it goes on shitty things, some of it goes on education and health and infrastructure and other things I benefit from both directly and indirectly.

In fact when I look at the effort and work I do, and compare it to what I get in return, I dont feel like Im being shafted, at least not on that level. Rather I wonder quite how many poor people, both here and especially in developing countries, are getting a much worse deal. Some of the relative luxury I, and a majority in this country, enjoy is because Ive made a slave of myself, some is because others are enslaved, and a big chunk of it comes from the 'virtual energy slaves' that industrial societies harnessing of fossil fuels has provided. One barrel of oil is equivalent to a heck of a lot of human labour and toil.

A fair and just system would bring us a very different sort of richness, and would mean an end to many of the planet-destroying luxuries we clearly take for granted as some kind of right.

As for surveillance, its because those in control want to maintain control, because technology makes it possible, because people have lost faith in their politicians, because our economic systems make the military industrial complex and its technologies & manufacturing capacity need state support and CCTV cameras dont go on strike or switch sides. And possibly because those in the know see a very messy future where the masses will revolt, and this must be thwarted at all costs.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I have been thinking that the real power lies with people who though are associated with certain countries could easily be of no country after all capital is their god their country.and elbows as usual writes a lot of sense

exactly. I've not read "superclass" but I think it deals with this. I even think the author is not against the notion.

My problem is that most of these movers and shakers in doling out the bailouts, the think-tanks and policy institutions, aren't elected or accountable in anyway.

Eisenhower and Kennedy both spoke of secretive groups operating effectively as a "shadow government". General Smedley Butler was recruited to lead a fascist coup, but he blew the whistle just before it came to fruition. Fascinating.

What is certain at the moment is that we are seeing a further consolidation of power. We need to know as much as we can about these people and what they are planning.

But to be balanced, there are of course aspects of globalisation and bodies like EU which can be very positive. but generally we should not trust the people in control, yet they are taking more control. This is very bad news.

 

[elbows]

But I also think the left need to analyse things a bit beyond "oh, it's just capitalism", which is the basic arguement I have often come across in these discussions.

Yes. Although I think that human history, the nature of power and the nation state, and specific powerful people, families, industries, regions, are just as responsible for the way things are as capitalism is.

The simple dismissal and head shaking towards NWO-fearers is not so much 'oh its just capitalism' as 'why is the idea that powerful people and institutions have power a revelation?'

At the end of the day I suppose my beef is with the focus on the sinister nature of the problem, instead of focussing on the possible solutions. You know I am suspicious of the likes of Alex Jones because far less is revealed about how he would like the world to be ordered, than is known about how the IMF operate.

 

[elbows]

I have been thinking that the real power lies with people who though are associated with certain countries could easily be of no country after all capital is their god their country.and elbows as usual writes a lot of sense

Thanks very much.

Some powerful people do not gain their power from a particular nation state, but generally I think most of them require states and institutions to exist in order to consolidate & maintain their power.

I mean power has to be derived from something, and their paper wealth and real assets are only useful if they are recognised, protected and exploitable, and the state and international institutions sure can be useful in achieving that.

Apart from the misery that comes with transition, two main reasons I dont rush to paint states and international institutions as evil that must be totally torn to shreds are:

The threat of international conflict and lack of cooperation between humans

The other powers that can rise up when unchecked. I dont want my life managed by local customs and dogmas, gangsters, ultracapitalists, priests etc. States and institutions can be dodgy brutes that may have some fundamentally unaccountable and sinister elements, but to eliminate them without figuring out how to keep these other powers in check, would be a whole new nightmare.

 

[jayeola]

What, is Obama a Lizard? What is NWO is Lizzard speak?

 

[Wolveryeti]

"These new regulations will revolutionise the way we get around them."

Plus ca change.

 

[Dozy]

Can anyone name an old conspiracy theory that has ever been proven to be true? Looking back into human history, are there any??

I can't think of one offhand.

 

[elbows]

I mean power has to be derived from something, and their paper wealth and real assets are only useful if they are recognised, protected and exploitable, and the state and international institutions sure can be useful in achieving that.

Hmm there is a rather large contradiction in that post of mine, in that I suggested the powerful are being helped by the state, whilst also suggesting that the state keeps these other powers in check. Can it be both? Maybe, certainly the powerful usually figure out how to use the state to their advantage, or are at least used to playing the game the way that states & institutions have things setup. Sometimes they get crushed if they make a mistake, some Oligarchs versus Putin for example, or overconfident dictators or druglords who double-cross the USA and then find out the limits to their power when they get killed.

Anyway clearly our governments and institutions have failed to live up to our expectations, partly due to dodgy ideologies, corruption, stupidity, compromising in the wrong way, poor design, silly scale, but also because our expectations are flawed too. Too much cynicism is just as potentially horrific as too little, I really hope we dont have to learn that lesson the hardway in the years ahead.

Dont know how I retain any hope at all considering we are likely to go to one extreme or the other, either being smothered by the state, killing the planet or eachother, or throwing the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to all the real progress that was made in giving people rights and putting limits on exploitation.

 

[elbows]

Can anyone name an old conspiracy theory that has ever been proven to be true? Looking back into human history, are there any??

I can't think of one offhand.

Depends what counts as a conspiracy theory, and what you mean by proved. Conspiracies happen, governments lie, and its well understood that the public words and stated objectives do not always match the private discussions and agenda. You only have to look at government files when they are eventually released, to see that shady things happen.

And the term conspiracy theory is a relatively new term that is rather effective as a smear, indeed it has multiple uses, most of which are not helpful. I passionately launch into tirades on threads such as these because we live in an age where reason is within our grasp, and so much quality knowledge and information is available, shame to have the waters muddied so easily. And because the smoke & mirrors that governments, institutions and societies construct are not so very different from the fabrications of reality that our brains find it necessary to indulge in to make sense of the world.

 

[Blagsta]

That's all Im genuinely trying to achieve here. This thing is out in the open, we need to discuss what it actually is and pull fact apart from fiction.

Im interested in the rest of what you siad and will get back to you on specific points as the thread develops.

My starting point at the moment is the perception that the multinational bail-outs represent a consolidation of assets and power into the hands of the small bunch of people who did so much to facilitate the scandalous operations of international capitals (especially in the form of the derivatives fraud imo)

From there, we can choose or not to look at institutions that are carrying out this agenda and what their past stated goals are.

It's time to get rational about this, and I appreciate people here making the effort. I wouldnt post here if I didnt respect the majority of peoples opinions or didnt think I couldnt learn from them.

Did you ever read that David Harvey book I recommended?

 

[shagnasty]

I remember the nixon affair how he went on television and declared his innocence but the two washington post jounos against all the odds nailed him down .That is probablly why i am not too critical of anybody who suggests some deeper meaning to an issue

 

[SpookyFrank]

New world order my nutsack. All this rhetorical posturing is just the latest attempt to convince people, against all evidence, that we're not staring down the barrel of New World Utter Bloody Chaos. Which phrase, incidentally, I am going to get copyright on ASAP to ensure I don't go the same way as the bloke who first said 'credit crunch' and failed to make any money out of it

 

[Roadkill]

Brown's New World Order - Daily Mail. Front page.
Brown's New World Order - Guardian. Front page.
Obama's New World Order - Independent. Front page.


There for all to see on the news stands: A new phase in the life of the global elite. Am I still paranoid for daring to say it exists?

Perhaps skeptics can say if they will write to the establishment mainstream press denouncing their newly found taste for tinfoil hats.

And perhaps a chance for skeptic leftists to explain how the idea of a ruling class manipulating and exploiting the mass isn't in itself a "conspiracy theory" anyway.

*Yawn*

Wake me up when Gordon Brown hands over power to a komodo dragon.

 

[panpete]

New world order my nutsack. All this rhetorical posturing is just the latest attempt to convince people, against all evidence, that we're not staring down the barrel of New World Utter Bloody Chaos. Which phrase, incidentally, I am going to get copyright on ASAP to ensure I don't go the same way as the bloke who first said 'credit crunch' and failed to make any money out of it

They're giving us the illusion of New World Utter Bloody Chaos so they can then, bring in the NWO, as a solution. then the police will be on all our street corners. hahhhahhahahaahah

 

[brasicritique]

One thing that is coming about is the shift of power from west to east .countries like japan, korea,china are beginning to have much more sway.

I agree with this , IMO ( for the full brasic legal disclaimer please will you all see that other thread esp you ed) there is a a big shift of power occuring but being reported as a fairer re-organisation of the worlds economic infrastructure. For example the car industry and manufacturing capicity in this country and the west as a whole is now well and truley on its way to china. IMO a lot of those losing there jobs will not get new ones by and by the end of next year there will be 4 million unemployed . In the UK as a whole we are seeing the restiction of education a policy disguised as 'inclusion' by way of keeping all kids in school till the age of 18 and thats before we even get to databases and the like. Managment is replacing education and academic research is now increasingly market led and dependant upon market forces.


IMO the current growth of police state infrastucture in the uk ( databases ID cards hyped war on terror etc etc ) is merely a reflection of the ongoing economic re-structuring of this country ( as well as the world in wider context) and the need to 'manage people' in the face of decreasing socio-economic opportunities as a whole for most of the population.

 

[shagnasty]

If i am correct i see your point they are trying to manage this decline by trying to control the population against the problems that mass unemployment will bring.jobs will be lost and it will take ten of years to get them jobs if they ever will .Did they ever get back the jobs that were lost in the eighties many people in the coal and steel industries .a job that took a toil on their health and as many of them reach their fifties their health as deteriated so many are on incapacity benefit genuine claimants but taken of the unemployed list

 

[danny la rouge]

It's just three words.

Order: the way things are organised
World: the world
New: it's new

So it's a new way of organising the world

This, pretty much. Although the "new" is very slight, and the degree of change would be better understood by Taff if he read the David Harvey book Blag recommended.

In short, this isn't Bilderberg conspiracy, it's ruling class manoeuvring.

 

[butchersapron]

The dirty bastards

 

[danny la rouge]

The dirty bastards

Aren't they, though?

 

[brasicritique]

If i am correct i see your point they are trying to manage this decline by trying to control the population against the problems that mass unemployment will bring.jobs will be lost and it will take ten of years to get them jobs if they ever will .Did they ever get back the jobs that were lost in the eighties many people in the coal and steel industries .a job that took a toil on their health and as many of them reach their fifties their health as deteriated so many are on incapacity benefit genuine claimants but taken of the unemployed list

yes i agree shagnasty. IMO there is a need for a new political/radical take on what this really means for most people and the dangers of simply ignoring this economic restructuring.

 

[butchersapron]

Aren't they, though?

But why are they acting so beastly?

 

[danny la rouge]

But why are they acting so beastly?

a) They're lizards.

b) It's something to do with that there ec-u-nomics.

 

[Rohen]

''New World Order'' has a special meaning to conspiracy theorists, on both the Left and Right and also to various fringe evangelical churches and it usually invokes a frightening future involving some kind of mash up of all or some of the following elements:

An evil, one-world government, that enslaves and exploits the sheeplesque microchipped Matrix-drones and the need for elite citizens who realise the TRUTH to stockpile tins/set up a website and sell DVDs to explain/hide in the backwoods with guns.

Satan/666?Babylon/End Times/Rapture/Armageddon/Mark of the Beast.

However, the phrase 'New world order' has been bandied about since WW1, and used to mean various things. After WW1, it meant 'a world after a war to end all wars', and incorporated ideas about democracy & the League of Nations. After WW2 it meant 'a world with international institutions - UN, NATO, IMF. After the cold war it was used to talk about a post-nuclear-armed world, or a world where international human rights were recognised. And so on.

It's a grand phrase used by politicians over the last sixty-odd years to talk about ideas or actions or institutions set up with global implications. It is only in very recent years that it has become a 'dog whistle term', this is because certain groups/mindsets, (previously obscure tiny fringe organizations) have particularly active on the internet, promoting their very skewed and highly imaginative and particular interpretation of the phrase, seen as invoking a sci-fi horrorfuture. Quite a bit of their imaginings seem to be based on scifi comics and highly selective and questionable readings of biblical texts



But relax. Do you really think if we were inches away from a conspiracy-theorist's-type-of-'new-world-order'-world, the media would just blithely announce it?

Thursday headline: New World Order!
Friday headline: Bar codes chips for all - law
Saturday headline: Fuck you Sheeple! PWNED

See?
Think about it.

So whats the law about all our internet and email being stored for a year then? BK it seems that things are pretty much already in place all that is required is activation

You do know of course that the government have laid a vast network of fibre optics out there for their SPecs cameras and ANPR cameras on the motorways already dont you?