'New' Routemaster design released

[kyser_soze]

For someone who's a real fan of technology I really, really despise the deskilling that SatNav brings with it. They're fucking dangerous IMV.

1. I've been in minicabs where the driver has spent most of the journey gawping at the little arrow on the screen, not the road

2. You never actually learn anything about where you're going, or how you actually get anywhere - you just follow the instructions

3. Getting lost is fun, and I personally think map reading is still an important skill to get to grips with, whether your walking, driving or sailing. Tools are useful, but not when they remove a useful skill, knowledge or ability from a process or action. IMV. And that's what SatNavs do.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

What??

Where do you think compensatiuon culture came from if not the US?

yet they are happy to run trolly buses with the possiblity of people falling off with out a load of hand wringing odd that isn't it...

you'd have thought that these would be the first to go or maybe even in the USA they couldn't allow idiots to sue for their own cock handedness maybe they passed a law that said if you jump on the back of off it then you're doing so at your own risk and cannot sue... hey that'd be too easy right...

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

For someone who's a real fan of technology I really, really despise the deskilling that SatNav brings with it. They're fucking dangerous IMV.

1. I've been in minicabs where the driver has spent most of the journey gawping at the little arrow on the screen, not the road

2. You never actually learn anything about where you're going, or how you actually get anywhere - you just follow the instructions

3. Getting lost is fun, and I personally think map reading is still an important skill to get to grips with, whether your walking, driving or sailing. Tools are useful, but not when they remove a useful skill, knowledge or ability from a process or action. IMV. And that's what SatNavs do.

i agree however they make going round isolated parts of london a doddle...

 

[kyser_soze]

Oh, I can absolutely see their utility. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't not use one. I just think their over-use encourages laziness and an actual dumbing down, a true de-skilling...and leads to stupid people driving cars into rivers...

 

[Roadkill]

SatNav is banned on rallies for obvious reasons, although it's useless anyway since part of the challenge is working out the route from cryptic instructions and getting there on time - and I know of no SatNav that can call the road more effectively than a decent co-driver with a map and poti.

I did see someone trying to use it once, though. Maybe the fact that he was concentrating on the electronic voice rather than his navigator accounts for why he went off and bent the front of his Impreza...

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Oh, I can absolutely see their utility. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't not use one. I just think their over-use encourages laziness and an actual dumbing down, a true de-skilling...and leads to stupid people driving cars into rivers...

But this is a good thing surely?

 

[kyser_soze]

Actually yeah...

MORE SATNAVS FOR IDIOTS!!!

Do you reckon that at some point we'll hear of someone driving off a cliff dumbly following their SatNav, or are there safety features in them to make the thing go 'Slow down you fool!! There's a cliff! There's Cliffffffffffffffffffffffff'....crunch.

Or the Yoda version:

Down you must slow, for a cliff here there is, hmm?

 

[ovaltina]

But they've still got Routemasters running on heritage routes in town... not sure if the buses have open platforms though.

I think the Routemasters sent over to NY were fitted with doors.

 

[Gixxer1000]

How does that little analogy work?

Well, could you fall onto the track? Yes? Best ban the tube then

 

[Gixxer1000]

I think the Routemasters sent over to NY were fitted with doors.

Could you get trapped in the doors?

 

[mattie]

Well, could you fall onto the track? Yes? Best ban the tube then

Do the train doors open when the train is moving? No, they don't, so you've absolutely no reason to be anywhere near the tracks in the act of boarding, and therefore if you are hit by the train you're doing something stupid entirely unrelated to the actual useage of the train.

 

[Crispy]

Well, could you fall onto the track? Yes? Best ban the tube then

I refer the honourable gentelmen to the Jubilee line extension.

 

[Cobbles]

The main objection I can imagine from TfL will be capacity. The bendy bus has very few seats...

So they're hardly going to tempt people out of a car where you generally get a seat as opposed to the right to stand....

one bendy bus can carry twice as many people as the old routemaster, while this one seems to carry only a few more. Of course, one bendy bus takes up a great deal more road space too...

Twice as many people but about 3 times the road space - that's progress???

 

[mattie]

So they're hardly going to tempt people out of a car where you generally get a seat as opposed to the right to stand....



Twice as many people but about 3 times the road space - that's progress???

Please, not here.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

bottom of the stairs, rather.
the stairs should not face directly onto the open door, anyway - that's just madness.

It is? I used to use them all the time as a kid (aged 10 upwards) and never once got hurt. In fact the only time a mate sustained injury the idiot deserved for jumping off while it was moving.

 

[quimcunx]

Any benefit of increased capacity in a bendy bus would be wasted in, for instance, Brixton where there are a gazillion buses and no dedicated terminal.

 

[Crispy]

It is? I used to use them all the time as a kid (aged 10 upwards) and never once got hurt. In fact the only time a mate sustained injury the idiot deserved for jumping off while it was moving.

Idiots deserve to get hurt?
It doesn't have to be stupidity - people can slip too.

 

[Gixxer1000]

I refer the honourable gentelmen to the Jubilee line extension.

I refer you to Northern Line, Piccadily, Victoria, District and Circle, Metropoilitan, Central.

 

[Gixxer1000]

Do the train doors open when the train is moving? No, they don't, so you've absolutely no reason to be anywhere near the tracks in the act of boarding, and therefore if you are hit by the train you're doing something stupid entirely unrelated to the actual useage of the train.

What about that dangerous "Gap" (as in mind it)

 

[Crispy]

I refer you to Northern Line, Piccadily, Victoria, District and Circle, Metropoilitan, Central.

All built before current safety legilslation and concerns and therefore hard & expensive to retrofit with the platfom door technology.

 

[Gixxer1000]

All built before current safety legilslation and concerns and therefore hard & expensive to retrofit with the platfom door technology.

Agreed but then so was the Routemaster. The advantages of the new Routemaster far outway the safety disadvatages anyway.

Hey howabout speedier disembark in the event of a fire (these new buses are prone to them dontchaknow)

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Idiots deserve to get hurt?

Yes, yes they do.

 

[mattie]

What about that dangerous "Gap" (as in mind it)

Is it any different to a road kerb?

The fundamental point is that a routemaster was considered a risk when being used as intended, as there was nothing to constrain overeager passengers from jumping on and off (or, indeed, falling off as they negotiated stairs on a moving vehicle) - as passengers would be expected to climb stairs with the vehicle in service, and jumping off obviously saved them time and hence they would be likely to do it, the risks are inherent to operation (even though certain risks are purely down to people misusing the service).

As passengers cannot actually stand on the rails of the tube,the risks are not the same. Of course, they could fall onto the tracks, but this risk is seen as unrelated to actually using the service - if the act of boarding the train meant they could fall in front of a moving train your analogy would be fair. As it stands, I can't see how it is.

As I said before, crying shame that they've gone, but I can see why TfL have taken the steps they have.

 

[Urbanblues]

It looks more easily accessible for wheelchair users. Trying to access most London buses at the moment is decidedly hit-and-miss. First, the driver has to be alerted that a chair wishes to board; then, there’s the drama of will-the-ramp-go-down-and-stay-down – will I actually get on the bus; once on, there’s the battle of wills with the people occupying the designated wheelchair space – contrary to urban myth, staring out the window and ignoring requests to move does not render the bus passenger invisible (being disabled can in certain circumstances achieve this, however); then, for some inexplicable reason the bus designers have put in place a vertical yellow pole, about two thirds of the way along the length of the wheelchair space – causing the wheelie to attempt a really tight manoeuvre in a tight space, on a bus often overcrowded with really arsey people (arsey cos they’re also trying to get to their destination this side of death).

Anyway – the new Routemaster doesn’t appear to have any such needless obstruction. The door at the front also means the driver can see exactly where he is putting the ramp down; often as not, with buses with doors in the middle of the vehicle, the driver can not properly line the bus up to avoid street signage or furniture.

Best of all, for I was never very happy with scrapping the Routemaster on the grounds that it was inaccessible to me; the new design allows for the hopping on and off the vehicle; thus speeding up the journey.

 

[Gixxer1000]

Is it any different to a road kerb?.

No and thats kind of my point

Of course, they could fall onto the tracks, but this risk is seen as unrelated to actually using the service .

I cant use the tube without being on the platform though.

 

[mattie]

No and thats kind of my point

You're arguing that moving vehicles are dangerous? That's your point?

I cant use the tube without being on the platform though.

The train isn't on the platform! Your whole argument comes down to stating that it's dangerous to be in close proximity to moving vehicles, which has nothing whatsoever to do with safety of open passenger exits near stairs on routemasters.

In the tube, you're on a stationary platform, well aware that a train will be coming, and with no reason or motivation to go onto the track at all. How are you going to be harmed exactly? What are the chances of you falling in font of a train? Contrast with being on a bus, walking down stairs whilst the bus is moving, or being allowed to jump off the bus when it's moving and having motivation to do so .

What is the more significant risk, one where people would have to do something completely non-beneficial and obviously self-destructive (placing themselves in front of a tube train) to be harmed, or one where they can be harmed through beneficial usage (falling down stairs as a bus corners/brakes/accelerates/hits a pothole etc. or jumping off at a more convenient spot whilst the bus is moving)?

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

They still have them on heritage route with no doors, so the safety thing is bollocks.

Few things in life make you feel more alive than hopping on to the platform as the bus starts to pull away.

But these new ones won't happen cos the bus companys have already bought loads of bendy ones and halved their workforce by getting rid of conductors. And in the end it all comes down to money.

 

[cybertect]

For me the question in law should be this: 'should a reasonable person be expected to know that their actions are dangerous?' If so, then they should take responsibility for any injury incurred.

There is no inevitability to the 'blame culture' - all that is needed is for someone to argue the case convincingly in court and for the courts to agree.

Time to bring on the legal legend that is the "man on the Clapham omnibus" as the test of reasonableness

I think the Routemasters sent over to NY were fitted with doors.

Possibly because they'd be opening into traffic unless the staircase was rebuilt to open on the other side

Some Routemasters were fitted with doors, such as the RMC and RCLs built for use by LT's Green Line as double-decker coaches in the country area.

Though this was probably more to do with passenger comfort at higher speeds (keeping air from blowing in from the deck) than safety. Incidentally, the Green Line versions of the Routemaster featured air-suspension from 1962.

While it's nice to see the idea of re-interpreting the engine-at-the-front-access-at-the-rear format that worked well for London for over 170 years from 1829, it has been attempted quite a few times over the last couple of decades.

There are a few things that made the Routemaster uniquely well suited and succesful for London that may be missing.

- relatively simple technology. While it was advanced for the 1950s, the engineers in the bus garages could work on them and keep them running with ease. Daily maintenance on the newer, more complex buses from the 1970s onward became a particular headache for LT.

- The RM was a complete system, not just a single vehicle. 2,700 buses with interchangeable parts. Each one was stripped down into components and rebuilt at Aldenham Works every five years. A bus would usually enter and leave Aldenham with a different body, engine and chassis sub-frames: practically a new vehicle. Not really appropriate with today's fragmented bus operators.

I'm not quite sure of the point of the 'panoramic' lower-deck front screen...

On the issue of Hydrogen, TfL are already using Hydrogen-fuelled buses on a limited scale, with a view to rapidly expanding their use over the next decade.

Quote of the moment: Only some ghastly dehumanised moron would want to get rid of the Routemaster - Ken Livingstone, 2001.

 

[salem]

sadly it appears this is one area where the USA is less sue happy than the UK... maybe they value history and practicallity...

Those tram's in San Francisco are more tourist relics than regular transport like the routemasters that still run on London.

 

[salem]

at some point we have to weight off the material cost vs the potential for injury to indivudual and also the practicalities of it. our enviroment demands it. getting rid of desieal powered buses which as the articule discusses isn't eco friendly at all, is a start, would improve air quality and i suspect asthema and other related breathign problems no end.

I agree, some things are more inherently dangerous than others. With the addition of the door at the front it performs just like any other bus if you so desire. A motorbike is dangerous, the stats show that. When compared to other forms of transport it is inherently dangerous. As a transport device it has fundamental safety flaws.