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New nuclear power stations - is there really a case?

So the question becomes, how much CO2 is produced per joule of usable energy in each case? I will be rather interested to see whether the government's proposed review of new build nuclear power stations is going to do some realistic comparisons of the alternatives.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I will be rather interested to see whether the government's proposed review of new build nuclear power stations is going to do some realistic comparisons of the alternatives.

I believe they did. Nuclear is not really popular, but anybody who understands the issue instead of just been indoctrinated by green propaganda can see that there are two REAL alternatives to sustain the economy until a better energy source is found: fossil fuel or nuclear. And there is not doubt here which one produce less CO2.
Renewable energy is a good thing that has its place and should grow but it cannot provide us with all energy we need.
 
Serguei said:
<snip> Nuclear is not really popular, but anybody who understands the issue instead of just been indoctrinated by green propaganda can see that there are two REAL alternatives to sustain the economy until a better energy source is found: fossil fuel or nuclear. <snip>
Do you have some evidence to back that up?
 
Serguei said:
<snip> Renewable energy is a good thing that has its place and should grow but it cannot provide us with all energy we need.
I've separated this out, because I believe that it's a separate discussion to one about the best way of producing a given amount of energy. It appears to me that you are also making the assumption that it is impossible for some reason to realistically make a significant difference to energy consumption. I disagree, and I think that it makes a great deal of sense to look for major energy savings as part of a rational and balanced energy policy.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
I think that it makes a great deal of sense to look for major energy savings as part of a rational and balanced energy policy.


Quite, some substantial savings can be made to energy use for not that much outlay.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
It appears to me that you are also making the assumption that it is impossible for some reason to realistically make a significant difference to energy consumption. I disagree, and I think that it makes a great deal of sense to look for major energy savings as part of a rational and balanced energy policy.

And how it can be donet?

The only way the consumption can go down is due to the technical progress (fridges today consume less energy then they used to and flat panel TV needs less energy then a traditional TV). But the technical progress would not occur if we artificially starve the economy of power by not building new nuclear stations and everybody will just get poorer then they are now.
 
tobyjug said:
Quite, some substantial savings can be made to energy use for not that much outlay.

It is probably possible to make some savings if the prices of petrol and gas go up. People will travel less (at least those who do not have much money) and heat their houses less.
 
Bernie Gunther said:
Do you have some evidence to back that up?

The main evidence - nobody yet come with realistic caclulation on how many wind farms it is required to build and solar panels to install and how much it will cost to prove otherwise.
 
Serguei said:
It is probably possible to make some savings if the prices of petrol and gas go up. People will travel less (at least those who do not have much money) and heat their houses less.


It is possible now. I had my home rockwool insulated, both cavity wall and the roof and it paid for itself in fuel costs in less than 3 years.
 
Serguei said:
The main evidence - nobody yet come with realistic caclulation on how many wind farms it is required to build and solar panels to install and how much it will cost to prove otherwise.
So in effect your claim is that the evidence is an absence of evidence?
 
The more attention I give the subject the more I agree with those that propose a meaningful restructuring of human ecologies - a change in how our communities work. Currently our landscape is the product of a huge centralisation of production, leading to the clustering of living spaces, their subsequent split from agricultural/rural space and the dependance of all this on central infrastructure. All of this was constructed on the assumption of plentiful, cheap energy - it wouldn't be possible without the subsidising of transport we see (not necessarily direct subsidies, though it is in the US where this is the most important, but the huge state initiatives for the expansion of transport infrastructure, providing the capital business wouldn't be able to) and without the cheap large-scale production of electricity. The former is under serious threat and the latter is about to run out.

Renewable energy isn't able to match fossil fuels in the way energy distribution works now - no practical array of windfarms will be able to power the city of London, it would probably have problems with the city of Portsmouth - but it is renewable, meaning exploitable, and it is capable of producting noteworthy amounts of energy. Because the scale of production is smaller, it would require a greater amount of energy plants closer to where the energy is used - it would bear closer resemblances to the way agricultural communities collected around mills than the dotting of power stations across the countryside - closer links to the local needs of production. This production must change as well, since the scale of energy received is smaller: they will likely scale down enormously, meaning that more would be needed, mirroring (more properly, complementing) the distribution of energy plants among now-decentralised communities, they will be more labour intensive and serve the community it is placed in rather than the market as a whole. Speaking in terms of energy usage, the ideal is a countryside with a near-uniform distribtion of light-urban/developed-rural communities, immidiately linked to their power, agricultural and industrial needs. The disadvantages are clear from the description, however the advantages are striking: this is a form of production that is both highly exploitable and renewable. The human labour might be more intensive but this leads to higher craftsmanship and, if I might be so bold, be a major psychological boon to those engaged in it: how desirable is the enormous labour-saving of today when the jobs it leaves us are dehumanising and undesirable and the majority of the population is critically underemployed. There will be greater interaction between the community and the production that serves it, rather than the former being an appendage of the latter as it is today.

In short, it won't as much be an improvement or degrading as much as a change, a meaningful change, and it need not be a catastrophic one if we make commitments towards implementing more sustainable, healthier human ecologies.
 
I should probably say something about nuclear power:

The fact that such a resort is being seriously concidered in the face of the obvious problems says a lot about our current situation. Nuclear power might be concidered the most capitalist energy source - enormous scale, the majority of the cost caught up in the starting capital with low running cost (and high profit) after that, and with the enormous supply footprint and enivoremental cost not shown on the books. It's a step in the wrong direction - our current situation is a clear example what a reliance on such centralised, non-renewable resources lead to. If we use nuclear power as a stopgap we are only setting ourselves up to fall harder.

I'm glad you're still into the Kropotkin, Bernie. I was hoping it would make a lasting impression on you - the man was sheer class.
 
tobyjug said:
It is possible now. I had my home rockwool insulated, both cavity wall and the roof and it paid for itself in fuel costs in less than 3 years.

Yes, this is the way forward. If gas prices go up but economy is not damaged by following anti-nuclear agenda and closing down all power stations without building new ones we all will have better insulated houses at some point in the future.
 
Good Intentions said:
This production must change as well, since the scale of energy received is smaller: they will likely scale down enormously, meaning that more would be needed, mirroring (more properly, complementing) the distribution of energy plants among now-decentralised communities, they will be more labour intensive and serve the community it is placed in rather than the market as a whole. Speaking in terms of energy usage, the ideal is a countryside with a near-uniform distribtion of light-urban/developed-rural communities, immidiately linked to their power, agricultural and industrial needs. The disadvantages are clear from the description, however the advantages are striking: this is a form of production that is both highly exploitable and renewable.

And what about transport? If the production is distributed how would the parts be moved from one place to another to produce any meaningful result (e.g. a wind power generator)? Are you proposing to have small workshops making difference parts to be distributed around the country and to use lorries (burning fossil fuel) to move the parts from one place to another as production process requires?
Would not this result in even more energy required then today?
 
Bernie Gunther said:
So in effect your claim is that the evidence is an absence of evidence?

All calculations I've seen so far shown that there is no way renewables will be able to cover our requirements at today's technological level of development.
If you have seen different calculations - it is up to you to share it among us.
 
If you're looking for energy savings, particularly oil energy, the place to look is how we get our food. Moving to a model based on community food security instead of industrial agriculture and supermarkets has a relatively large impact. Rather more so than better insulated houses for example.
 
Serguei said:
All calculations I've seen so far shown that there is no way renewables will be able to cover our requirements at today's technological level of development.
If you have seen different calculations - it is up to you to share it among us.
Well, here's a preliminary feasibility level calculation.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/globalization-climate_change_debate/2587.jsp#ten

I think it might be worthwhile to do something more detailed, but it'll take me a few days.
 
I'm against nuclear, it's too dangerous, but I'm a realist. The governments of Russia China France UK and USA (and the others) are going to need military grade plutonium if they are to retain their nuclear weapons there's no way they'll close down all the power stations. So perhaps it would be more realistic to demand new safer military reactors and the decommissioning of the old reactors.
 
Excluding chernobyl, and that's a big exclusion i admit, how many people have died due to accidents at nuclear reactors?

How many at coal plants?

Define this danger. Or are you just following the herd and panicing?
 
Not many Bob the lost, but even so, there is a case for military only reactors. We have all heard it said that uranium reserves are limited. We should not squander this resource for cheap, short term electricity.
 
Serguei said:
All calculations I've seen so far shown that there is no way renewables will be able to cover our requirements at today's technological level of development.
If you have seen different calculations - it is up to you to share it among us.
In my experience those figures conflate a high level of technological advancement with a capitalist mode of production. The two are obviously not the same thing. However, for the past 100 years almost all effort in science has been funded by capital, in service of capital, and our inventions reflect that, supporting that illusion. When necessity demands a non-centralised solution, the rate of advancement is at least as fast as in capitalist research - in my field, the huge advances in distributed computing are an excellent example.
 
Hanfstaengl said:
Not many Bob the lost, but even so, there is a case for military only reactors. We have all heard it said that uranium reserves are limited. We should not squander this resource for cheap, short term electricity.
So what should we squander this resource on? More nuclear weapons instead?
 
Serguei said:
And what about transport? If the production is distributed how would the parts be moved from one place to another to produce any meaningful result (e.g. a wind power generator)? Are you proposing to have small workshops making difference parts to be distributed around the country and to use lorries (burning fossil fuel) to move the parts from one place to another as production process requires?
Would not this result in even more energy required then today?
No, I'm not. As much as possible must be produced locally. I'm also not saying we should junk/disregard the transport infrastructure already in place (I doubt you thought I did). We should however minimise our dependance on it by not removing the production of commodities from where the commodities will be used. The enormous energy savings to be made by minimising the need for commuting will also be telling.
 
Good Intentions said:
No, I'm not. As much as possible must be produced locally.

It was possible in Middle Ages, when the most technilogically advanced product used in a village was a hourse shoe.
I cannot see how you can locally produce a solar-powered computer-controlled power source, washing machine and a car.
I'm also not saying we should junk/disregard the transport infrastructure already in place (I doubt you thought I did). We should however minimise our dependance on it by not removing the production of commodities from where the commodities will be used. The enormous energy savings to be made by minimising the need for commuting will also be telling.

It is a fantasy that has nothing to do with reality. We have to go to Middle Age level of technology to be able to do it.
 
Good Intentions said:
However, for the past 100 years almost all effort in science has been funded by capital, in service of capital, and our inventions reflect that, supporting that illusion.

What is the other way to do it? I know only one - communist state. But that used to have working science only because it had competition from capitalism.

When necessity demands a non-centralised solution, the rate of advancement is at least as fast as in capitalist research - in my field, the huge advances in distributed computing are an excellent example.

So who pays for the research in distributed computing?
 
Saying 'production' is one thing. Saying what kind of production is another.

Let's take food for example, there is no fundamental reason that I can see that in principle prevents a great deal of food production from being local and decentralised. Same with most kinds of building, civil engineering and several kinds of renewable energy production. Large energy saving result from doing things this way, especially with regard to food production. See e.g. Cuba.

Building a chip fabrication plant for mass production computers on the other hand, is not something that I can easily see how to do at a village scale.

Some things, e.g. the nutrient recycling that we should be doing if we want to be able to cut fossil fuel use in agriculture, you can pretty much only do on a local scale.

The suggestion here, as I understand it, is not that we completely stop doing any production that can't be done locally. It's that we maximise the amount of production that is done locally, rather than assuming that high-capital investment centralised production, of the sort common to both capitalism and soviet era communism, is the only way to do anything at all.

Centralising energy production for example automatically incurs 10-20% transmission losses over any given method of local energy production.

Centralising food production incurs very large fossil energy costs, through industrialising agriculture, moving water, fertilisers, pesticides, food and waste products around, industrially processing them, packaging them and transporting them to supermarkets, getting them from the supermarket to peoples homes, collecting and transporting the waste products, then processing that waste and transporting the result or disposing of it. You can knock a big chunk off those oil costs through organic local food production.
 
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