New Labours Great Betrayal

[butchersapron]

Yeah? Sorry, don't believe you.

 

[audiotech]

Yes the old lady may benefit...But the overwhelming amount of people in the UK have not benefited from immigration from Poland. It has helped to keep rents high and wages low....

Yes there is a possiblity of skills not being utilised in poorer countries....But you will be as familiar as me with the need for Doctors,Nurses,Teachers and engineers etc in some of the countries that Britain and other richer nations has poached skilled workers from.

As for people sending money back home....There is not one SINGLE example of any country that has really benefited from this. Remittances have the unfortunate effect on increasing inequality in those countries at the same time as people are coping with the shortage of medical and education workers.
Countries like Ireland and Poland that suffered from Economic migration needed the boost of eu funding before they could start to attract the young and skilled workers they had lost.

A shortage of housing and the maximisation of profit has kept rents high and wages, for some, low.

As for people sending money home? 150 million migrants worldwide sent some 300 billion dollars to their families in developing countries during 2006. That is a lot of dosh that will bring some benefit to impoverished countries. Including this one.

The 5.5 million brits living elsewhere you never touched on?

 

[audiotech]

Yeah? Sorry, don't believe you.

You never do arsewipe.

 

[tbaldwin]

MC5 An increase in population has obviously led to an increase in demand for housing and jobs. Pushing down wages and increasing rents.
As for people sending money home. Not much good for poorer people in those countries with no doctors teachers or relatives abroad to send money home.
As for the xpats.....The majority of them will be people who support free market policies on capital and labour and do well out of it. I dont support that all. I really dont know why you continue to support free market policies on migration.
The free market just makes things worse.

 

[audiotech]

MC5 An increase in population has obviously led to an increase in demand for housing and jobs. Pushing down wages and increasing rents.
As for people sending money home. Not much good for poorer people in those countries with no doctors teachers or relatives abroad to send money home.
As for the xpats.....The majority of them will be people who support free market policies on capital and labour and do well out of it. I dont support that all. I really dont know why you continue to support free market policies on migration.
The free market just makes things worse.

I don't support the "free market", a naive, utopian fantasy if truth were told. What I do support is the free movement of labour.

As we've discussed before on this matter, your alternative is authoritarian and not very free at all.

 

[tbaldwin]

I don't support the "free market", a naive, utopian fantasy if truth were told. What I do support is the free movement of labour.

As we've discussed before on this matter, your alternative is authoritarian and not very free at all.

So you only half support the free market?
You dont support the free movement of capital do you? But you do support the free movement of Labour? Does that mean that you think we should let people in the country as long as they empty their pockets first?

Seriously though it is an utterly ridiculous position to say your against the free market and then say your for the free movement of people.

And yes your right my position can be described as authoritarian. Right wingers and Liberals dismiss all Socialism as authoritarian. Getting people to pay tax or obey laws is authoritarian....Perhaps youve turned into some kind of right wing anarchist in your old age....

 

[brasicritique]

This govt has done many things that have not endeared them to the electorate. The Iraq debacle, rampant privatisations, corruption, waste, inefficiency, the creation of a surveillance state and a feeling that our freedoms that were fought so hard for over centuries are being ditched.

However, one of the greatest betrayals is the failiure to build more social housing. The seeds of the current problem of people overstretching themselves in order to buy property they cannot afford and the subsequent rise in personal indebtedness could have been avoided or at least reduced by the Govt investing in quality social housing from '97 onwards. Social housing doesn't have to be all sink estates populated by antisocial chavs it can be a positive thing for all our society. Quality social housing backed up by appropriate services could have made an immense positive difference to the quality of life for the whole country. The fact that they went out of their way to avoid this investment whilst simultaneously wasting money on consultants, PFI and pet dog whistle projects to benefit their own friends shows just how much NL REALLy cares about the average bod in the UK.

Much of the current credit crunch panic could have been avoided if less people were tied to mortgages they cannot afford and were housed in decent social housing.

The lack of social housing and the tightening of conditions to get it means that social housing is now the sole preserve of the deserving and undeserving poor. This was never the intent of those who dreamed up and planned the social housing of the past in projects such the great LCC estates in places like Beacontree.

Blair and Brown have betrayed the British people on the housing issue and encouraged the growth in sub prime mortgages to desparate people.

Its a shame they won't share a cell as punishment for the con artists which they are.

actually i think your confused and your line about only the undersrving and desrving poor getting social housing is actually a fallacy and insulting

what has happened since nushamebore came to power is that there has been a growth of housing - for key workers only and often called affordable housing . But not all key workers got these places as the term 'affordable' was loosely implemented and affordable housing was used to house young professionals. The odd nurse aside this housing has been for those with money and seems to have ignored the fact that seeing as how the 'professions' which this housing was aimed at as the concept of 'key workers' was very very loosely implemented what has happened is that a sizable number of people with money and a profession got a home.

The poorest have not seen there opportunities for hosuing increase since newshamebore came to power - they have sen them decreased and this i sbefore we go on a 'duruti and the effects of immigration on housing thread' so this myth that the poorest seem to be getting all the housing and the seperation of them into deserving and undeserving are in the realms of the widycombe

 

[audiotech]

So you only half support the free market?
You dont support the free movement of capital do you? But you do support the free movement of Labour? Does that mean that you think we should let people in the country as long as they empty their pockets first?

Seriously though it is an utterly ridiculous position to say your against the free market and then say your for the free movement of people.

And yes your right my position can be described as authoritarian. Right wingers and Liberals dismiss all Socialism as authoritarian. Getting people to pay tax or obey laws is authoritarian....Perhaps youve turned into some kind of right wing anarchist in your old age....

1) No.
2) No.
3) No.
4) Why?
5) Nope.

 

[tbaldwin]

Seriously though it is an utterly ridiculous position to say your against the free market and then say your for the free movement of people.

Because supporting the free movement of capital and labour are the twin planks of capitalism...Its nonsense to say capital can be regulated if labour cant utter rubbish.

Its completely dishonest to say that yes we want to control the excesses of capital but people can go where they like.....with what they like.....eg lots and lots of money......

 

[audiotech]

Seriously though it is an utterly ridiculous position to say your against the free market and then say your for the free movement of people.

Because supporting the free movement of capital and labour are the twin planks of capitalism...Its nonsense to say capital can be regulated if labour cant utter rubbish.

Its completely dishonest to say that yes we want to control the excesses of capital but people can go where they like.....with what they like.....eg lots and lots of money......

People are not free to move under capital though are they? Just looking at the national level, mobility within the UK is at it's lowest level.

I'm talking about an alternative to capital, where people are free to go fishing in Finland, paint in Portugal, after working in Warrington.

 

[tbaldwin]

People are not free to move under capital though are they? Just looking at the national level, mobility within the UK is at it's lowest level.

I'm talking about an alternative to capital, where people are free to go fishing in Finland, paint in Portugal, after working in Warrington.

As i have said repeatedly.....Of course there is no such thing as free movement of people....
Travel by and large costs money.

Those of you who support free market policies on migration, seem to be forget the fact that those most able and likely to move are those with the money and the skills.

Migration at the moment is restricted by money or a lack of it.
Supporting free market policies on migration means supporting policies that make the world a much more unequal place. And that is something no socialist should do.

 

[audiotech]

As i have said repeatedly.....Of course there is no such thing as free movement of people....
Travel by and large costs money.

Those of you who support free market policies on migration, seem to be forget the fact that those most able and likely to move are those with the money and the skills.

Migration at the moment is restricted by money or a lack of it.
Supporting free market policies on migration means supporting policies that make the world a much more unequal place. And that is something no socialist should do.

What's the point of having any debate with you. I'd get more sense from a talking weight machine.

 

[tbaldwin]

What's the point of having any debate with you. I'd get more sense from a talking weight machine.

Poor old MC5 weighed down with his great intellect.

 

[belboid]

poor old tb, weighed down by endlessly repeating claims he has no evidence for

 

[tbaldwin]

Its like a weight off my shoulders belboid being able to laugh at all the fake left wingers like yourselves...People who support the free market slavishly one minute then pretend their so much against it the next.

 

[belboid]

yeah, right. left wingers like you who vote liberal.....and go along with the '1,000,000 blacks - 1,000,000 unemployed' fallacy

And I note you still, after all these years arguing the same thing, point out any actual stats to back up your point.

 

[audiotech]

11stone 3lbs