New Labours Great Betrayal

[glenquagmire]

If all you can do is call me a Tory cunt for questioning whether its correct to keep voting to get my arse kicked by NL then the only person pushing juvenille bullshit is your good self.

I haven't done anything of the sort.

When you go to vote, there are lots of names on the ballot paper in most cases.

Being pissed off with New Labour's rightward shift and responding to it by voting for an even further right party is the sort of idiocy which a GCSE politics student ought to be able to point out the flaws with.

 

[tbaldwin]

Yup you vote for the party that is the least worst. At the moment (and that could change) the Tories look like the least worst to me especially on the issue of personal freedoms (and remember its the British personal freedoms that attracted so many talented immigrants to the UK enriching us for decades) which New Labour have been so keen on trashing.

I think you will find that immigration rose hugely under Labour....And the consequences of this mass migration forced Labour to discourage mass migration which is just as well for most of us...

 

[Hocus Eye.]

The Tories don't really care about personal freedoms. That is just their spin on their policy of allowing business to be completely unregulated. They present it as of use to individuals just to get the popular vote. If they get elected they won't care about the voters who were fooled, they will just get on with making sure that their business supporters get a free run at cashing in.

The Tories have always tried this appeal. Thatcher did it in '79 after studying what was being written in the Sun. It is sad really because lots of self-employed people and even some who work for others are duped into thinking that their best interests lie with the Tories when they really don't.

All the talk of tax cuts also is a trap. People think that they will be able to spend their money on what they want. Sadly the tax cuts go hand in hand with cuts in welfare that benefit almost everyone at some stage in their lives. So the cuts in the health service mean that the individual will have to pay for it in a private market. This costs more. There is a profit margin to be covered.

All of the public services provide things that are needed by ordinary people. These needs won't go away. Instead of them being paid for by taxes and thus evened out among the population as a whole, they will be paid for by individuals at times of difficulty in their lives. This will lead to a harshening of living conditions for those who work for their living rather than living off income from capital. Don't fall for the sales pitch folks.

 

[tbaldwin]

The Tories don't really care about personal freedoms. .

Disagree with that.
I think the Tories have always put the personal freedoms of the privelleged minority before the collective interests of the majority.

They have always believed in a free market for capital and labour...They think that people should not be stopped from making money whenever,however and where ever they like......bit like the liberal left but with a slightly more coherent world view....

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Labour may be a crock of shite taffboy but what is the alternative? I cant think of any political party that isnt even more shite to be honest.

Any idea why the SNP are having such an easy time getting votes?

Labour want us fingerprinted and eyescanned for a monitoring database and are happy to mislead us as to the reasons.

No matter how low we may regard them it is not as low as they regard us.

I would say the SNP, Plaid, Libdems and Greens are all less corrupt, right wing, complicit in the financial mess or insulting to the intelligence. Not to mention I doubt they would put arms dealers above the law.

 

[TomPaine]

However, one of the greatest betrayals is the failiure to build more social housing. The seeds of the current problem of people overstretching themselves in order to buy property they cannot afford and the subsequent rise in personal indebtedness could have been avoided or at least reduced by the Govt investing in quality social housing from '97 onwards.

What pissed me off was that twat Prescott. Do you remember those houses in Liverpool. Good solid victorian houses, suitable for housing families and part of Liverpool's heritage. So Prescott had them bulldozed and replaced by shitty flats, that are not suitable for families and look bland.

Cunt

TomPaine

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

One other thing. New Labour doesnt exist. Name me a single councillor or MP who has been elected with the words "New Labour" on the ballot paper.

"New Labour" started life as a branding exercise. Now it is a blag for apologists to act like it aint their party that are corrupt, draconian neoliberal liars with blood on their hands. Lordy no - thats some OTHER party, that's NEW Labour that is.

Bollox. It is The Labour Party. Check facts and abandon denial.

 

[tbaldwin]

What pissed me off was that twat Prescott. Do you remember those houses in Liverpool. Good solid victorian houses, suitable for housing families and part of Liverpool's heritage. So Prescott had them bulldozed and replaced by shitty flats, that are not suitable for families and look bland.

Cunt

TomPaine

Talking to a friend of mine the other day about Manchester...In the last 10 years it has changed so much. I think Labour should have done more to regenerate some Northern cities. The tories though would have been and will be a lot worse.

 

[trevhagl]

With New Labour you knew what you were getting. We knew before they came to power, and we certainly know now.

I think a lot of people who voted for them HOPED that the cosying up to Murdoch etc was all an act and that they would be REAL Labour in power but i doubt even the most sceptical could've predicted an illegal war, more draconian big brother laws than even the Tories and energy firms allowed to double prices in 3 years with no comebacks...

 

[trevhagl]

I haven't done anything of the sort.

When you go to vote, there are lots of names on the ballot paper in most cases.

Being pissed off with New Labour's rightward shift and responding to it by voting for an even further right party is the sort of idiocy which a GCSE politics student ought to be able to point out the flaws with.

Very true and the same thing has baffled me about the BNP especially on the very same council estates that once stood proud and fought alongside the miners...the world has gone mad

 

[nino_savatte]

This govt has done many things that have not endeared them to the electorate. The Iraq debacle, rampant privatisations, corruption, waste, inefficiency, the creation of a surveillance state and a feeling that our freedoms that were fought so hard for over centuries are being ditched.

However, one of the greatest betrayals is the failiure to build more social housing. The seeds of the current problem of people overstretching themselves in order to buy property they cannot afford and the subsequent rise in personal indebtedness could have been avoided or at least reduced by the Govt investing in quality social housing from '97 onwards. Social housing doesn't have to be all sink estates populated by antisocial chavs it can be a positive thing for all our society. Quality social housing backed up by appropriate services could have made an immense positive difference to the quality of life for the whole country. The fact that they went out of their way to avoid this investment whilst simultaneously wasting money on consultants, PFI and pet dog whistle projects to benefit their own friends shows just how much NL REALLy cares about the average bod in the UK.

Much of the current credit crunch panic could have been avoided if less people were tied to mortgages they cannot afford and were housed in decent social housing.

The lack of social housing and the tightening of conditions to get it means that social housing is now the sole preserve of the deserving and undeserving poor. This was never the intent of those who dreamed up and planned the social housing of the past in projects such the great LCC estates in places like Beacontree.

Blair and Brown have betrayed the British people on the housing issue and encouraged the growth in sub prime mortgages to desparate people.

Its a shame they won't share a cell as punishment for the con artists which they are.

So vote Tory at the next General Election? I know you will. You've become a full blooded convert to the party.

 

[nino_savatte]

If all you can do is call me a Tory cunt for questioning whether its correct to keep voting to get my arse kicked by NL then the only person pushing juvenille bullshit is your good self.

So you'll be voting Tory then. We used to have a word for people like you...

 

[danny la rouge]

I think a lot of people who voted for them HOPED that the cosying up to Murdoch etc was all an act and that they would be REAL Labour in power but i doubt even the most sceptical could've predicted an illegal war, more draconian big brother laws than even the Tories and energy firms allowed to double prices in 3 years with no comebacks...

Yes, some people hoped the Tory cloak would be removed to reveal a real socialist or at least social democratic government underneath. These people hadn't been paying attention, and were in thrall to a fairy tale. Anyone who was paying attention knew we were dealing with militaristic, authoritarian, champions of big business, with plans (even before they were elected) to Americanise social welfare and health provision.

It was all predictable and predicted before they came to power.

 

[TomPaine]

Just to add to the above, the botched job of devolution is another fuck up to add to the New Labour list.
How they thought not giving England some kind of parliament/assembly to match Scotland and Wales was a good diea, was beyond me.
Now we have crap like NICE (ironic name, no?) deciding who gets to die of cancer and who doesn't, whilst at least the Scottish and Welsh institutions can decide what to do regarding health issues, with input from the PUBLIC.

I presume this was an attempt by Labour to hold onto power by using MPs from Scotland for example to pass crap like the student top up fees. Thats equality for you under New Labour.....

TomPaine

 

[Belushi]

How they thought not giving England some kind of parliament/assembly to match Scotland and Wales was a good diea, was beyond me.

TBF theres little support for an English Assembly, when Labour did try to roll out regional assemblies (in the North East) it was rejected by the voters.

 

[danny la rouge]

Now we have crap like NICE (ironic name, no?) deciding who gets to die of cancer and who doesn't, whilst at least the Scottish and Welsh institutions can decide what to do regarding health issues, with input from the PUBLIC.

The Scottish euivalent to NICE is the SMC (Scottish Medicines Consortium). It is exactly the same sort of quango, made up of healthcare professionals from NHS Boards across Scotland, patients representatives, health service management reps, and representatives of the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industry.

The SMC is not under the regulation of Holyrood; it is an independent body, and there is no direct political input.

Their coming to different decisions to NICE is not related to devolution; Scotland had different legal, educational, medical etc institutions long before devolution.

 

[audiotech]

I think you will find that immigration rose hugely under Labour....And the consequences of this mass migration forced Labour to discourage mass migration which is just as well for most of us...

Hmmm, well most migrants workers are better educated and around 30 years of age, so mass migration a benefit to capitalism wouldn't you say?

I can't see the any government wanting to discourage educated migrants in the hope that those young people, classed as "Neets" move into work and training, particularly when the 'New Deal', which is supposed to tackle the problem, has become, as one commentator put it, 'a revolving door back to benefits'.

Interesting to see that there are now more expatriate Brits than in the days of empire and the Raj, 5.5m at the latest count.

 

[Demosthenes]

I was tempted by the Greens but they do seem to be infected with the same current of Authoritarianism that makes my stomach churn when I thinkn about NL. Cant' trust the Lib Dems besides that its a wasted vote as you say.

All votes are equally wasted, I reckon.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Originally Posted by Zachor

"I was tempted by the Greens but they do seem to be infected with the same current of Authoritarianism that makes my stomach churn when I thinkn about NL."

Many people think this, but in my experience "seem to be" is in reality "imagined to be".

Coercion is no way to achieve anything IMO and the Greens are in practive less authoritarian than most other parties.

The comparison to Labour is certainly unfair. Greens dont advocate the disgusting NIR or pre-crime units in social services for starters.

 

[tbaldwin]

Hmmm, well most migrants workers are better educated and around 30 years of age, so mass migration a benefit to capitalism wouldn't you say?

.

As you know i would say it was a benefit to some of those individual migrants. And to the richer people in the country. But not to the vast majority of people in this country and that economic migration is very very bad news for poorer countries,who lose the skilled workers they most need.

 

[TomPaine]

The Scottish euivalent to NICE is the SMC (Scottish Medicines Consortium). It is exactly the same sort of quango, made up of healthcare professionals from NHS Boards across Scotland, patients representatives, health service management reps, and representatives of the Association of British Pharmaceutical Industry.

The SMC is not under the regulation of Holyrood; it is an independent body, and there is no direct political input.

Their coming to different decisions to NICE is not related to devolution; Scotland had different legal, educational, medical etc institutions long before devolution.

According to the Scottish government website, Health is a devolved issue. Therefore the SMC must report to Holyrood and not Westminster? If this isn't the case then it just shows how crap these quangos are really (like we didn't know that already) and probably exposes another Labour fib.
Yes you are right on Scotland having its own laws etc. but as far as I am aware until Health was devolved one body provided guidance on which drugs would be placed on the NHS list for the whole of the UK?

TomPaine

 

[TomPaine]

TBF theres little support for an English Assembly, when Labour did try to roll out regional assemblies (in the North East) it was rejected by the voters.

They may have been the case a few years ago but I think it has gained much support across the political spectrum as people are becoming aware of how certain Labour ministers use it to push through unpopular laws. The CEP for example seem to have grown fairly substantially with memebrs from all walks of life/political affiliations and recently had a Lib dem MP giving a talk on the subject of devolution.I also believe they don't let BNP members join or any other hard right groups.
I believe Frank Field made a speech about the subject, I've seen Socialist blogs such as Charlie Marks discuss the issue and even the BNP seem to have unfortunatly latched onto the topic.
I think it will be a growing question over the coming years and will become more important if Scotland decide to go it alone.

With regards to the regional assemblies, I think we have to remember that these where exactly that, regional and not a national assembly. This I believe had a fair amount to do with people voting it down. Apart from the fact that Scotland and Wales where offered national bodies, yet Labour wanted to hack England down into chunks, I think people saw through Prescott and the other shit they where trying to pull.

However since this ultimatley seems to point back to the EU, it may explain why after the regional assemblies where decided to be a none starter, the government rolled out the RDAs and other parasitical quangos.

TomPaine

 

[danny la rouge]

Health is a devolved issue.

Yes, it is now. And before it was a devolved issue, much of it was overseen by the Scottish Office.

NICE in England was only set up in 1999. Before that decisions were made at a Health Board level.

My point is that some things blamed on devolution aren't the fault of devolution.

Your substantive point that asymetric devolution throws up problems is of course correct. My MP was until the reshuffle a junior minister for a function that was devolved. Therefore if I wanted to pursue that with my elected representative, I'd have had to contact my MSP and/or the relevant Scottish Minster.

The current Prime Minister cannot make decisions about health, education, agriculture, fisheries and forestry, economic development, environment, food standards, home affairs, police and fire services, sport and the arts, transport, and so on in his own constituency: for all that he has to write to his MSP. But he can make decisions on those things for England.

Scottish MPs abstaining from votes on those matters wouldn't really help: do Welsh MPs abtain on the different list of matters devolved to the Welsh Assembly? Northern Irish MPs on the different list devolved there? Do London MPs abstain on the yet again different list of matters devolved to the Mayor and Assembly?

A bit of a mess.

Either there should be a Federal UK, or the constituent countries should be independent. Westminster in its current form isn't really sustainable.

 

[TomPaine]

danny la rouge> I agree with you 100% there.

TomPaine

 

[audiotech]

As you know i would say it was a benefit to some of those individual migrants. And to the richer people in the country. But not to the vast majority of people in this country and that economic migration is very very bad news for poorer countries,who lose the skilled workers they most need.

The old lady up the road who has some Polish guy employed to do her shopping is not rich, but this is a benefit for her.

As for skilled workers in poorer countries? What about the possibility of their skills not been utilised because of a country being poor? What about money being sent back by skilled workers to make it richer?

 

[butchersapron]

The old lady up the road who has some Polish guy employed to do her shopping is not rich, but this is a benefit for her.

You might want to pick a more rigorous example out of your arse MC5.

 

[danny la rouge]

You might want to pick a more rigorous example out of your arse MC5.

Could be a council employed home help, or someone employed via a social work/health board disability budget for an assessed need.

 

[butchersapron]

Could be, or more likely the latest in a long line of made up max-emotive examples MC5 uses that undermine the argument he's trying to make.

 

[tbaldwin]

The old lady up the road who has some Polish guy employed to do her shopping is not rich, but this is a benefit for her.

As for skilled workers in poorer countries? What about the possibility of their skills not been utilised because of a country being poor? What about money being sent back by skilled workers to make it richer?

Yes the old lady may benefit...But the overwhelming amount of people in the UK have not benefited from immigration from Poland. It has helped to keep rents high and wages low....

Yes there is a possiblity of skills not being utilised in poorer countries....But you will be as familiar as me with the need for Doctors,Nurses,Teachers and engineers etc in some of the countries that Britain and other richer nations has poached skilled workers from.

As for people sending money back home....There is not one SINGLE example of any country that has really benefited from this. Remittances have the unfortunate effect on increasing inequality in those countries at the same time as people are coping with the shortage of medical and education workers.
Countries like Ireland and Poland that suffered from Economic migration needed the boost of eu funding before they could start to attract the young and skilled workers they had lost.

 

[audiotech]

Could be, or more likely the latest in a long line of made up max-emotive examples MC5 uses that undermine the argument he's trying to make.

Do fuck off.

I spoke to the Polish guy this morning who works for a care provider and delivers shopping on a weekly basis to older tenants I work for.