New Green Party policies on banks (and migration)

[durruti02]

bellboy "becuae the wages aren't high enough, nor the coonditons good enough, to attract sufficient uk born workers."

gosh, with that stunning argument I am totally put in my place! Your mastery of facts, and guile in marshalling them is surely second to none.

One teenie, tiny problem, you don't actually say which part of the quote you disagree with.....nor indeed what 'it' is

lol cos it is fucking obvious .. as long as the bosses import labour then we wil NEVER get on top of

" ..becuae the wages aren't high enough, nor the coonditons good enough, to attract sufficient uk born workers..."

this is what amazes me about your POV .. it makes no sense whatsoever

 

[belboid]

so what do we infer from the above .. one that you are squirming as it quite simply is far wider than you suggest .. you sinply have no idea do you how THEY ( the bosses ) have relied on migration in agriculture, almost all manual work in the private and public sectors, whole sectors of private contract work etc etc, to attack terms and conditions .. you are either in utter denial or your are deliberately lying ..

oh well, if that's your attitude, you can just fuck off. You haven't managed to come up with anything to dispute that stats I mentioned, what you posted just more assertions. 'almost all manual work in the public and private sectors' simply isnt true, not by a long chalk.

you claimed all migrants were starving

No I didnt, dont lie.

oh ffs and I actually DO this while you chat shite on the internet .. IF someone is here THEY are part of this class our class and are treated as brothers and sisters .. BUT YOU support the bosses bringing MORE cheap labour over to undercut the rest of us scrambling around here allready .. as i said you appear to have no understanding of what trade unionism is .. have i seen matewan .. jesus .. actually organise migrant workers where i work you dope

this would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Methinks you are confusing me and baldie when it comes to just talking shit in the internet, you know nowt sunshine if you think that's what I do, so go fuck yerself, yeah?

on the salient point tho, it's fuck all use saying 'well, okay, you lot can stay, but no more.' What happens when the next group of migrants arrives? Do you go 'well you really should have stayed at home, and you aren't really welcome here, but since you are....' I imagine you don't because you're not (normally) an idiot, but that is precisely what you are saying here.

he believes the state should act against the bosses

Not so, He believes that state should impose immigration controls against workers (and you seem to be agreeing with him, tho I guess you probably dont really), with all the necessary force etc that goes with those controls. That is not acting against the bosses, its acting against the workers. It IS anti-worker, and effectively blames them for the problems the bosses have created.

 

[belboid]

you are mental if you think that backs up your POV .. that debate shows totally that migration exists currently as a key part of neoliberalism, and that the ordianry owrker is not benefitting, which is what i have argued all along

and it clearly supports the wider picture, that immigration controls are bad and worsen the problems - something you sneered at when i mentioned it earlier. Still, I've given up on expecting consistency from you.

 

[tbaldwin]

gosh, with that stunning argument I am totally put in my place! Your mastery of facts, and guile in marshalling them is surely second to none.

One teenie, tiny problem, you don't actually say which part of the quote you disagree with.....nor indeed what 'it' is

Because neither me or durruti are having a go at foreign workers but are arguing about the effects that migration has on them and other people.
If you had a third cell i think you would understand.

 

[Isambard]

Ball not man?
But personal digs are the stock in trade of right wing posters when they cannot sustain an argument.

 

[tbaldwin]

Ball not man?
But personal digs are the stock in trade of right wing posters when they cannot sustain an argument.

If you twist peoples words and tell lies what do you expect isambard to earn peoples respect......I mean it probably works for a soppy liberal like belboid BUT

 

[durruti02]

... Much better people starve innit? ..

what does this mean then?

 

[durruti02]

Because neither me or durruti are having a go at foreign workers but are arguing about the effects that migration has on them and other people.
If you had a third cell i think you would understand.

why does he not get this mate? .. i am at a total loss to understand

 

[durruti02]

1)... You haven't managed to come up with anything to dispute that stats I mentioned, what you posted just more assertions. 'almost all manual work in the public and private sectors' simply isnt true, not by a long chalk.


2)No I didnt, dont lie.


3)this would be funny if it weren't so tragic. Methinks you are confusing me and baldie when it comes to just talking shit in the internet, you know nowt sunshine if you think that's what I do, so go fuck yerself, yeah?

4)on the salient point tho, it's fuck all use saying 'well, okay, you lot can stay, but no more.' What happens when the next group of migrants arrives? Do you go 'well you really should have stayed at home, and you aren't really welcome here, but since you are....' I imagine you don't because you're not (normally) an idiot, but that is precisely what you are saying here.


5)Not so, He believes that state should impose immigration controls against workers (and you seem to be agreeing with him, tho I guess you probably dont really), with all the necessary force etc that goes with those controls. That is not acting against the bosses, its acting against the workers. It IS anti-worker, and effectively blames them for the problems the bosses have created.

1) all the stats say the same thing ( i have posteed them enough bloody times) .. that immigration helps increase gnp but has, with how it is used, a distinct negative impact on the poorer end of the w/c .. millions unemployed and has kept down wages fro millions in many areas and even helped reduce wages for millions more .. as i say i can't see any other explanation for your failure to comprehend this than maybe by utter ignorence of this part of the w/c

2) see above

3) do you organise as part of your shop steward duties migrant workers ... have you observed first hand how migrnat workers have been abused by contractors .. i doubt it otherwise you would be reacting/talking differrently ..

4) fuck you really are thick .. i am arguing that trade unions force employers to employ local kids at proper wages ( wheras you defend their right to employ cheap migrant labour ) .. and that the state is forced to train workers for the work our society needs .. i am not saying ANYTHING to migrants .. why should the bosses be allowed by the workers movement to employ cheap migrant labour instead of local kids?

5) he can answer that but i do not believe so .. he does not argue for immigration control as you continuosly imply

he instead highlights the negative effects of the bosses use of immigration his one demand from his 'maifesto is this

"7 Stop the recruitment of skilled workers from poorer nations unless companies pay reparations to those nations."

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=247537

ETA
no i am wrong, here he says he is in favour of strict immigration controls .. sure he will explain what he means

http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7483002&postcount=70

 

[chilango]

1) If either Balders or Durutti could argue against the stats i provided earlier that would be great. Thanks.

2) If either Balders or Durutti could counter the assertions I made earlier that would be equally great. Thanks.

3) As an ecomomic migrant, it would be healthy if Balders, Durutti etc could have the cojones to state explictly who I'm fucking over and how. Thanks.

Failing that, i will to continue to assume that I am, in fact, correct.

 

[chilango]

Incidentally, if the Green Party ever did adopt the sort of policies advocated by the likes of Balders and Durruti on immigration I would no longer be a member.

 

[chilango]

Chilango.

The stats from the ONS show immigration is still significantly higher than emigration in that year.

Significantly?

The stats from that year showed that

a) more people left the UK than entered.

and

b) more people left the UK for work than entered the UK for work.

You cannot spin those figures to suit your argument. Those figures utterly undermine you. Do you have a response to those facts?

And i think everbody knows there are no reliable stats on how many migrants really live in the UK.

So, no. If the figures don't fit, simply deny them?

C'mon....

The arguements on needing migrants to pay for our pensions are deeply flawed and completely reactionary.

how?

why?

elucidate....

I go into hospitals regularly as ive had cancer for the last 6 years and i have to say that .

hang on...

lets quote that again...

i find it completely disgusting how many foreign workers there are

Frankly, I'm shocked thar you would come out with shite like that.

I know we disagree on tihs, but I do expect better from you...

They come from countries like the Phillipines,India,Zimbabwe do you not think these countries need people like them at home?

Those countries need a hell of a lot. A bunch of nurses staying at home will not change anything.

Do you not think that the UK should be doing more to get people from this country working in the NHS?

Yes I do.

I think that nurses etc should be values a hell of a lit more, and thus paid accordingly.

Do you not think that the UK should stop the disgusting 21st process of imperialism that means they continue to plunder poorer countries of the resources they most need, in this case skilled workers.

Poorer countries are not short of skilled workers.

They are short of equality and political will. Stricter border controls will not change this.

 

[chilango]

we both object to the use of migration by the rich

...by blaming the poor and missing the bigger picture.

Great.

 

[chilango]

1 Trying to make out that i described foreign workers as disgusting was a LIE.

Your own words suggest otherwise...

perhaps said in the heat of the moment, but ill-chosen words nonetheless.

2 Look at therise in number of preventable deaths in Africa in the last 20 years. Do you really think that has nothing to do with economic migration? ( actually you probably do

)

Really. Nothing to do with economic migration. Really. Of all your arguments, this is the one you are most wrong on. Please believe someone who has been there on this....

4 No but i would draw up a list of people eligible for a citizens income.

The citizens' income/social wage is an idea i've argued for here numerous times...

5 Not too keen on the idea of ex pats returning but yes id be prepared for that.

Well thanks...

A lot of them have had an adverse effect on the countries they have moved too and it is only fair that we take them back.

Go on...

Be good to see the falklands islanders sent to some deserted scottish island and we could use the money saved to pay reparations to some of the poorer nations that we have plundered over the years

 

[chilango]

C'mon.

You've a real life economic migrant here. Blame me for stuff. Vent. Have a go. Take me to task for doing the bosses work (if you can - which I doubt). Go on. I won't be offended.

Where's your balls guys?

 

[tbaldwin]

C'mon.

You've a real life economic migrant here. Blame me for stuff. Vent. Have a go. Take me to task for doing the bosses work (if you can - which I doubt). Go on. I won't be offended.

Where's your balls guys?

After all that ive written onn the subject you still think i am anti immigrant? Sorry but that is really just so stupid. Bordering on belboid style sillyness.

My arguement against you is not that your an economic migrant. I know many economic migrants very well that i have huge admiration for including my gfs dad who came over in the 60s not a great time to be an Indian in the UK id guess.

My arguements are against the reactionary right wing nonsense that people like you and belboid propogate.The pensions issue is just one issue that exposes peoples politics. People seriously suggesting its good that we take workers from poorer countries so they can pay tax to pay our pensioners a decent wage...What complete and utter shit. Anybody who advances that kind of arguement to me is the worst possible type of SCAB. This country has more than enough to pay every person of pension age a decent pension.

Only morons on urban go on about stats. They usually only prove one thing that people produce stats to fit their own agendas. I dont trust the govts figures on migration which have proved widely innacurate. I dont trust any of the snout in the trough campaign groups figures either and i dont trust migration watchs.

There are plenty of immigrants and descendents of immigrants that i really like and/or love. What i dont like are morons and scabs.

 

[chilango]

After all that ive written onn the subject you still think i am anti immigrant? Sorry but that is really just so stupid. Bordering on belboid style sillyness.

My arguement against you is not that your an economic migrant. I know many economic migrants very well that i have huge admiration for including my gfs dad who came over in the 60s not a great time to be an Indian in the UK id guess.

My arguements are against the reactionary right wing nonsense that people like you and belboid propogate.The pensions issue is just one issue that exposes peoples politics. People seriously suggesting its good that we take workers from poorer countries so they can pay tax to pay our pensioners a decent wage...What complete and utter shit. Anybody who advances that kind of arguement to me is the worst possible type of SCAB. This country has more than enough to pay every person of pension age a decent pension.

Only morons on urban go on about stats. They usually only prove one thing that people produce stats to fit their own agendas. I dont trust the govts figures on migration which have proved widely innacurate. I dont trust any of the snout in the trough campaign groups figures either and i dont trust migration watchs.

There are plenty of immigrants and descendents of immigrants that i really like and/or love. What i dont like are morons and scabs.

Hmmm.

I don't like scabs either...

Pensions?

i don't even have one...

Sure ignore the stats if its convenient, and deal with substantive points of my argument with you...

(Note: I've never argued that migration is "good", merely that its both reactionary, misleading, incorrect and counterproductive to chase the red herring of migration)

 

[tbaldwin]

Its not a red herring Capitalism has two main ingredients the support of the free movement of capital and labour. Anybody with any sense who argues against capitalism argues against both.

 

[chilango]

Its not a red herring Capitalism has two main ingredients the support of the free movement of capital and labour. Anybody with any sense who argues against capitalism argues against both.

Neither are the "main" ingredient of capitalism. C'mon....

 

[tbaldwin]

Neither are the "main" ingredient of capitalism. C'mon....

Is it just me who thinks you can get wet in the rain?

 

[chilango]

The "main" ingredient?

A useful tool/motor at times sure.

....but if you thinik its a defining factor...

really?

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

Its not a red herring Capitalism has two main ingredients the support of the free movement of capital and labour. Anybody with any sense who argues against capitalism argues against both.

The first sentence is basically true. To extrapolate the 2nd has no logical basis.

Man Utd play football.

It doesnt follow that anyone who doesnt like Man U doesnt like football.

 

[ymu]

To support free market policies on migration is nonsensical for anybody who stands against the excesses of the free market.

Only if you regard people as commodities. You clearly (and righteously) condemn the commodification of the workforce under current immigration policies, but you do exactly the same thing when you argue for (an analogue of trade) protectionism as a solution.

Immigration policy in the UK puts people into legal limbo for years; unable to legally work, unable to survive if they don't. This is what makes them mere fodder for the CBI to drive down costs and wages.

In promoting an anti-immigration agenda as a solution, you mirror the attitude of capital, by regarding people as on a par with things and allowing someone's worth to be defined by the lowest bidder rather than the intrinsic value they have to society. What the hell are unions for if not to tackle this?

 

[where to]

C'mon.

You've a real life economic migrant here. Blame me for stuff. Vent. Have a go. Take me to task for doing the bosses work (if you can - which I doubt). Go on. I won't be offended.

Where's your balls guys?

really pathetic what you're trying to do there tbh.

 

[durruti02]

1) If either Balders or Durutti could argue against the stats i provided earlier that would be great. Thanks.

2) If either Balders or Durutti could counter the assertions I made earlier that would be equally great. Thanks.

3) As an ecomomic migrant, it would be healthy if Balders, Durutti etc could have the cojones to state explictly who I'm fucking over and how. Thanks.

Failing that, i will to continue to assume that I am, in fact, correct.

chilango .. it is sa shame but you have entirely misunderstood what i ( and tb ) are saying

i am not sure what your refer to that you want me to comment on .. but i think you mean the stats that you interpret as suggestting there is no competition for jobs .. quite simply there is .. there are millions withouotout work in this country .. you really need to ask yourself why

and who has ever suggestted that there is something wrong in being a migrant? i certainly have not .. i am a migrant my dad before him was and his grandparents too .. millions of us are, billions globally are

.. you appear to have entirely missed the point that the question is, IS it a good way to run society that we are forced to follow capital to get a living wage???

this is the question that must be asked to understand why migration happens

i am not sure if you followed previous threads but it is clear in todays UK the vast majority of migration is based on a pull as our previous welfare state was transformed into a neo liberal state

 

[durruti02]

Incidentally, if the Green Party ever did adopt the sort of policies advocated by the likes of .. Durruti on immigration I would no longer be a member.

sorry but what do you believe i am arguing?

 

[durruti02]

...by blaming the poor and missing the bigger picture.

Great.

sorry???? LOL where?? when?? how??? utterly daft .. i have never once blamed migrants but blame those who use them

you know your ( and belboids) understanding of my POV is SOOO way wrong that i really think you are either not reading it or are deliberately ignoreing what i say

 

[durruti02]

The first sentence is basically true. To extrapolate the 2nd has no logical basis.

Man Utd play football.

It doesnt follow that anyone who doesnt like Man U doesnt like football.

so who should decide who works where and who lives where? at the moment it is capital ..

presumably you think that is wrong? so how and who would you replace that?

 

[durruti02]

and it clearly supports the wider picture, that immigration controls are bad and worsen the problems - something you sneered at when i mentioned it earlier. Still, I've given up on expecting consistency from you.

you really are a div bb

.. i have told you consistently over several years now i OPPOSE immigration controls .. did you get that? I OPPOSE IMMIGRATION CONTROLS! understand??

.. yet you continue to state i support them .. why?

how am i to relate to you when you consistently fundamentally misrepresent me? not once but over and over again however many times i state that you are misrepresenting me

and fyi , what DO I support?? ( for the millionth time)

- that trade unions force employers to employ locally at proper wages and that we force the state to train people to do the work that we as a society need .. what is so wrong with that????

 

[Isambard]

I think it is important to recognise that there ARE migrants into Britain and that Britain is a popular place to migrate to. That we HAVE to recognise that British society is now comprised of a fair number of people of migrant backgrounds and short of mass deportation, we've got to live with that.

Wishing back to a 1950s indigenous Britain with "local jobs for local workers" is the road to nowhere.

Even if there was an end to migration from outside the EU, the Poles or Lithuanians etc would still come and go, come and go, with some staying.
Or are you against the European project, not nescessarily equal to the the EU of course.