New council houses for Muslims in Oldham

[kyser_soze]

Really. Cannot. Be. Fucking. Arsed.

 

[Jonti]

Good.

Next time, don't bother, OK?

 

[Jonti]

I think the point is that you need to rebutt the claims - in this case about these housing allocations - and set the facts straight.

If you go straight to saying 'racist' then you have left the claims unanswered.

I think you can do both tho' - first of all deal with the claims, deal with a few threads by someone and only then - once their agenda has become clear enough - you can start telling them to fuck off and exposing them for being a racist cunt.

Well, yes. But.

And the "but" is that there is a danger of appearing to take the premise of the argument seriously, simply by engaging with it in the first place. And I have to confess, that having read Grean's other posts, it seemed to me quite safe to treat him with the respect he deserves.

Most people got it, so I don't think I misjudged the readers here.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

So you would prefer that a large, extended asian family be shoehorned into a 1 bed flat while some single BNP tosser larges it in a 5 bed 'mansion'?

Hmmm... yeah, but again, 'the elephant in the room' comes into play... you can't discuss such a topic without seeming racist...

Okay, in this example, five bedroom homes are built, specifically with large families in mind...

Because within the local community, those larger families tend to come from among the Asian population, it creates a perception: not really larger homes built for larger families, but larger homes built for asian families. And it's the latter perception that is bandied about by the likes of the BNP and used to stir up ill-feeling within a community.

I mean, there is a difference in portrayal in the media:

Large asian families in large homes can get portrayed in two ways: (i) this is how a local authority is promoting good community relations by understanding and tailoring their service provision to accommodate asian families' needs; (ii) the BNP/racist slant of why are 'they' getting nice new houses when 'local' families who've lived here since year dot don't?

There's a positive and a negative, and race comes into play. The 'race card' can be played either way.

If there was a large white family, who needed a five bedroom house (or seven, some of these homes were larger), then there'd probably be an outcry about useless, feckless dole dossing scroungers (a la Loudmouth Lizzie whatsername from Wifeswap).

The white (not-)working class is seen as undeserving, whereas the asian community is seen as [more] deserving because their different cultural needs must be tailored to, otherwise accusations of racism are bandied about, but the local authorities are on safe ground denying or rationing services to the white (not-)working class, because they can't cry racism. No one gives a shit about them, except the BNP.

And again, unless and until the mainstream political parties and media can address these (mis)perceptions and grievances, stories like this will just fuel the fire and send more and more people into the arms of the BNP. Sad

It's as if there's a complete lack of realisation that this overly-PC attitude of 'elephant in the room' we mustn't talk about for fear of offending people, that very fear of offending people is something that's causing the problems to get worse and be taken up by the BNP. If the mainstream don't address it, then extremists will. But currently the mainstream can't/won't, so the very thing that they are railing against (racism) is the very thing they are helping to perpetuate.

 

[TeeJay]

Hmmm... yeah, but again, 'the elephant in the room' comes into play... you can't discuss such a topic without seeming racist...

The BBC seemed to manage OK ... whereas the OP re-imagined their story to reintroduce racist the bullshit - I suspect deliberately.

 

[treelover]

On the ball again, Ann, just look at this

The racists are driven by envy of Asian success

My home town, Preston, doesn't feel like Britain's race hate capital. But the social decay in white areas has created tensions

Faisal Bodi
Wednesday July 26, 2006
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1830112,00.html

If there was a large white family, who needed a five bedroom house (or seven, some of these homes were larger), then there'd probably be an outcry about useless, feckless dole dossing scroungers (a la Loudmouth Lizzie whatsername from Wifeswap).

The white (not-)working class is seen as undeserving, whereas the asian community is seen as [more] deserving because their different cultural needs must be tailored to, otherwise accusations of racism are bandied about, but the local authorities are on safe ground denying or rationing services to the white (not-)working class, because they can't cry racism. No one gives a shit about them, except the BNP.

And again, unless and until the mainstream political parties and media can address these (mis)perceptions and grievances, stories like this will just fuel the fire and send more and more people into the arms of the BNP. Sad

 

[treelover]

oh, annd whatever the merits or not of them, most people will see the new housing as 'mansions', with all that entails...

 

[Jografer]

Hmmm... yeah, but again, 'the elephant in the room' comes into play... you can't discuss such a topic without seeming racist..., specifically with large families in mind...

I don't think that is the case here, while this being portayed as being 'unwise'..... use of language ('Mansions' ffs !!) gives a very clear steer as to what the REAL agenda is

 

[guinnessdrinker]

On a wider point, housing benefit is to be abolished (after a massive campaign to stop it by the left, not!) this is going to create even more overcrowding and ghettoisation.

I don't think it is going to be abolished (any source?). on the other end, there is a move towards paying it directly to tenants, which is only going to end in tears for landlords and tenants.

 

[Jonti]

Is it just me, or does the Guardian have a nasty, anti-working class, streak to its style and reporting?

 

[treelover]

Don't want to derail thread, but it is being abolished to be replaced by a city/regionwide housing allowances (prob set much lower). apparently one of the rationales is so the unemploeyed(wahtabout the disabled) become more aware of the cost ofaccomodation, learn to make financial decisions and of course , the clincher, move to cheaper probably shared accomodation. This will certainly have an impact in poorer urban areas.

Housing benefit reform to encourage lower rent
By Philip Webster, Political Editor
A REFORM of housing benefit to encourage tenants to opt for cheaper rents and to prevent landlords abusing the system is to be published today.

Housing benefit in the private rented sector will be scrapped and replaced with a local housing allowance that councils will set according to what is considered the average and reasonable rent in their areas. Claimants will be asked to find accommodation that costs something close to that rate. If they can find cheaper homes, they will be entitled to claim up to £15 a week of the difference for themselves.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254673,00.html

I don't think it is going to be abolished (any source?). on the other end, there is a move towards paying it directly to tenants, which is only going to end in tears for landlords and tenants.

 

[kyser_soze]

The BBC seemed to manage OK ... whereas the OP re-imagined their story to reintroduce racist the bullshit - I suspect deliberately.

I'd say exactly the opposite - that the BBC report plays perfectly into the hands of the racists:

Eco-friendly homes specially designed for the local Asian community have been unveiled in Greater Manchester.
The 18 state-of-the-art houses in Selwyn Close, Oldham, have wind turbines and solar panels on the roof.

The homes have up to seven bedrooms, some have bathrooms that face away from Mecca and the kitchens also comply with halal cuisine.

They were designed in consultation with the local community in Coppice, which is 60% Asian.

There isn't a mention of any other houses being built for anyone else until the last couple of paragraphs - which if you wanted to make this an article about how the HAs/council etc were responding to local housing needs (which they are) you'd lead with 'As part of Oldham councils ongoing partnership work with local communities to restore and regenerate housing...' and then go on to list other projects as well, with these homes highlighted as examples of how the theory and practice of community consultation can work, and work well or whatever.

As it is there are two comments, and NO EXAMPLES given in the last couple of lines of the article. It's not enough to say "Were doing schemes in other areas where there will be a mixture of people," you have to SHOW people that it's happening.

 

[LLETSA]

How wonderful that all of these purpose built mansions were ALL occupied by Muslims.

I've walked past the site recently-they could in no way be described as mansions. What is it about fash and hyperbole?

Maybe you can get together with Mick and Anita and work out how to troll better, now that they've got time on their hands?

 

[treelover]

tbh,i am seriously worried about how story pans out, especially if the tabloids run with this.

 

[treelover]

who they?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

There's a positive and a negative, and race comes into play. The 'race card' can be played either way.

If there was a large white family, who needed a five bedroom house (or seven, some of these homes were larger), then there'd probably be an outcry about useless, feckless dole dossing scroungers (a la Loudmouth Lizzie whatsername from Wifeswap).

The white (not-)working class is seen as undeserving, whereas the asian community is seen as [more] deserving because their different cultural needs must be tailored to, otherwise accusations of racism are bandied about, but the local authorities are on safe ground denying or rationing services to the white (not-)working class, because they can't cry racism. No one gives a shit about them, except the BNP.

Spot. On.

 

[guinnessdrinker]

Don't want to derail thread, but it is being abolished to be replaced by a city/regionwide housing allowances (prob set much lower). apparently one of the rationales is so the unemploeyed(wahtabout the disabled) become more aware of the cost ofaccomodation, learn to make financial decisions and of course , the clincher, move to cheaper probably shared accomodation. This will certainly have an impact in poorer urban areas.

Housing benefit reform to encourage lower rent
By Philip Webster, Political Editor
A REFORM of housing benefit to encourage tenants to opt for cheaper rents and to prevent landlords abusing the system is to be published today.

Housing benefit in the private rented sector will be scrapped and replaced with a local housing allowance that councils will set according to what is considered the average and reasonable rent in their areas. Claimants will be asked to find accommodation that costs something close to that rate. If they can find cheaper homes, they will be entitled to claim up to £15 a week of the difference for themselves.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-2254673,00.html

thst it is what I meant, reformed, not truly abolished. it is currently being tested on private tenancies in several pilot areas, including lewisham. HAs and councils are totally unhappy at the prospect of the scheme being extended to them.

 

[Jonti]

If they can find cheaper homes, they will be entitled to claim up to £15 a week of the difference for themselves.

So if you are on your own, you can be forced to move from the area. But if your property owning mates ("bourgeois friends") can rent you a cheap room, you can get extra money from the state?

This is so NuLabor it is almost laughable.

<goes off and cries instead>

 

[WouldBe]

I'd say exactly the opposite - that the BBC report plays perfectly into the hands of the racists:

Eco-friendly homes specially designed for the local Asian community have been unveiled in Greater Manchester.
The 18 state-of-the-art houses in Selwyn Close, Oldham, have wind turbines and solar panels on the roof.

The homes have up to seven bedrooms, some have bathrooms that face away from Mecca and the kitchens also comply with halal cuisine.

Agreed partly. Why couldn't they just say homes for larger families.

Easy to arrange bathrooms that dont face Mecca just align the houses E-W so the room will be north or south facing.

What's a halal compliant kitchen?

 

[TeeJay]

I'd say exactly the opposite - that the BBC report plays perfectly into the hands of the racists:

It was said that "you can't discuss such a topic without seeming racist".

As much as the BBC report has flaws, the report itself it doesn't come across as racist to me.

(edited to add: unlike the OP)

 

[kyser_soze]

Agreed partly. Why couldn't they just say homes for larger families.

Easy to arrange bathrooms that dont face Mecca just align the houses E-W so the room will be north or south facing.

What's a halal compliant kitchen?

None of that stuff is necessary - the article should have focussed on the whole regeneration project and how it was helping ALL communities, not one specific group.

 

[TeeJay]

None of that stuff is necessary - the article should have focussed on the whole regeneration project and how it was helping ALL communities, not one specific group.

But the "asian" angle was 'the story':

"Eco-friendly homes specially designed for the local Asian community have been unveiled in Greater Manchester."

It looks like the journalist wanted to make a point about the design of these homes - ie what made them different from any other newly built homes elsewhere.

They would probably argue that this was the whole point of their story and a story about "normal house built in typical neighbourhood" is too much "dog bites man" rather than the "man bites dog" that journalists are always looking for.

Having said that, I have a lot of issues even with the use of thet term "Asian" and the way they covered this story, but I still don't think the article seems racist, just simplistic and not well rounded (smething I find with most BBC website stories as opposed to their broadcast output).

 

[ViolentPanda]

The BBC news yesterday had an item about new council housing which has been built in Oldham as part of the regeneration of the town since the race riots of 2001.

There were 18 beautiful new 5 bedroom houses all of which were to be occupied by Muslims. The council had built these mansions especially for the Muslim community because they have such large families.

Oh dear.
"Mansions", is it?
So they're detached residences set in acreage and having a gatehouse, are they?

Nah, they're semis aren't they?

Oh, and they're to be occupied by Asian families, not Muslims. People with half a braincell know that the two aren't synonymous.

Makes me wonder what your agenda is.

So, whilst most people are lucky if they can get council accomodation at all, Oldham council is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds building mansions for one section of the community. Maybe we should have a riot in my area!

Oldham council have spent dick.

If this is Neo Labour's response to combatting the growth of the BNP, could somebody tell them they may have made a mistake. Even the author of the report into the Oldham riots warned that this could be a dangerous move.

What a housing association chooses to do with the stock it builds has fuck all to do with the government, be they labour, Tory or Griffin's shower of braindead cunts.

Apparently the British left thinks it will combat the far right by shitting on the white working class and treating Muslims to their every whim and desire?

And you extrapolated all that from your other incorrect bullshit?

My, but you're a clever one, aren't you?

 

[kyser_soze]

But the "asian" angle was 'the story':

"Eco-friendly homes specially designed for the local Asian community have been unveiled in Greater Manchester."

It looks like the journalist wanted to make a point about the design of these homes - ie what made them different from any other newly built homes elsewhere.

They would probably argue that this was the whole point of their story and a story about "normal house built in typical neighbourhood" is too much "dog bites man" rather than the "man bites dog" that journalists are always looking for.

Having said that, I have a lot of issues even with the use of thet term "Asian" and the way they covered this story, but I still don't think the article seems racist, just simplistic and not well rounded (smething I find with most BBC website stories as opposed to their broadcast output).

BUT...the mains story is the regeneration - it's community invovlement, it's use of eco-driven housing design etc. These are EXAMPLES of a wider, positive story that can easily be spun to read 'Asians get all the assistance' - not helped by the seemingly contradictory opening statement and then the comment about 'being open to all' - it's really poor jounrnalism on the BBCs part, and fuckign appalling media strategy on the part of the council and the HAs involved.

 

[Wilf]

The basic point is this - most council houses are designed for smallish families, and don't suit larger ones. Muslims tend to have larger families, often with older relatives living with them. If such families are going to have any chance of an equal entitlement to what council housing there is, then some council housing needs to be bigger. If you accept that Muslims who live here, work and pay taxes have a right to equal treatment then i don't see how you can deny that.
(I'm leaving to one side the point that this isn't actually council housing - frankly it should be and that wouldn't affect the point).
.

I'd certainly agree with this. Seems to me entirely unproblematic that both Councils and Housing Assocs should produce housing that meets the needs of different groups and communities. In fact HAs are at the forefront of that - specific projects for the elderly, disabled etc.

At the same time, there is a (complex) issue raised by A'ON on this thread - about the type of politics that might be behind such policies and housing allocations. Its the kind of thing Keenan Malik has raised in his critique of multiculturalism (though i certainly don't agree with all of his rants). Its the idea that anti-racist positions from the 1980s - rooted in either socialist or even left-reformist politics - have slipped away. Instead they've been replaced by a professionalsied form of multiculturalism, which can lead to forms of separatist pressure group politics at the local level. These in turn can fuel racist backlashes. Rather than presenting a case for specific communities within a broader left perspective, they can so easily be portrayed as 'give the houses to us and not them'.

 

[John Grean]

As I said before about the comment on ha's and council housing being the same:



can you reply to this, John?

See my post at #27.

 

[John Grean]

treelover,

are you saying the writer of OP is included in this ... most of the people with IWCA approaches to politics have probably had more experience of anti-fascism than many of their critics? Are you? So what are you saying?

Are you saying I should expect someone with an IWCA approach to politics to use the word liberal as an insult, as JG did here?

I'm going on this poster's words right here, on these forums. How about you?

The liberal comment was a joke!

By the way I am not and have never been a member of the IWCA or any prior organisation to them. All posts I make are my own personal opinion and not representative of any group.

 

[John Grean]

The basic point is this - most council houses are designed for smallish families, and don't suit larger ones. Muslims tend to have larger families, often with older relatives living with them. If such families are going to have any chance of an equal entitlement to what council housing there is, then some council housing needs to be bigger. If you accept that Muslims who live here, work and pay taxes have a right to equal treatment then i don't see how you can deny that.
(I'm leaving to one side the point that this isn't actually council housing - frankly it should be and that wouldn't affect the point).

In this case, precisely 18 (!) houses are built which suit the purpose.

Now you either defend fair treatment or say that any attempt to provide for different needs of ethnic minorities will always 'look bad' and 'be damaging' and 'be used by the BNP'. I'm for the former.

If the proportion of these houses to the total being provided is bigger than the proportion of Muslims in Oldham, then the whinging would start to have a grain of justification. But I'd be pretty amazed if that was the case.

Well, you have to ask the question that if thousands of houses are being built, then why have these 18 very large houses (between 5 and 7 bedrooms) been completed first and all been used to house Asian families.

Do white people not like living in 5, 6 or 7 bedroom houses? Maybe whites will be happy with 2 up, 2 down terraces with shitty pebble dashed fronts?

By the way, a house with more than 4 bedrooms is a mansion to me.

And please note as I stated at post #27, that although housing associations are not council housing, they are still more affordable than the private rental market.

A final point, given that right-to-buy still exists for new houses built by housing associations, can we expect the £3 million invested to be bought off at bargain basement rates in a few years by the Asian occupiers?

The same thing happened in London in the 1980's ensuring Thatcher bought off the working class for a generation and Labour out in the wilderness. Some people don't fucking learn!

 

[Giles]

So if you are on your own, you can be forced to move from the area. But if your property owning mates ("bourgeois friends") can rent you a cheap room, you can get extra money from the state?

This is so NuLabor it is almost laughable.

<goes off and cries instead>

In the end, if you want to have any real control over where and in what you live, own it.

Anything else just leads to a life of whinging and moaning over how "they" won't give you what you want, where you want.

Harsh, but that is how it is.

Giles..

 

[John Grean]

So you would prefer that a large, extended asian family be shoehorned into a 1 bed flat while some single BNP tosser larges it in a 5 bed 'mansion'?

Don't put words in my mouth.