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New council houses for Muslims in Oldham

Tbh, I think the way that New Labour and other political parties and also the media, tend to treat issues like this as 'the elephant in the room' actually increases support for the BNP.

Issues such as this *are* issues in working class communities. I was in Blackburn during the last general election campaign, and the communities up there are quite segregated and divided.

There was a lot of white working class resentment on the doorsteps. Many white people (albeit not all) in the council estates up there were quite resentful about resources being diverted (as they saw it), to improve facilities and homes on the estates that were majority populated by Asian families.

It seems that there's a perception that local authorities such as Blackburn (and this can apply to other councils with large asian populations), concentrate a lot of resources on areas with a high asian population. This is possibly for a number of reasons: More effective lobbying and community groups making demands (whoever shouts loudest gets the most); local authorities perhaps overcompensating for previous disparities in income and deprivation levels -- a fear of being portrayed as racist or anti-asian that means the local authority sinks more resources into asian areas (a positive action kind of thing); and then also, in places like Blackburn, there is a lot of voting on community lines, so it's perhaps viewed as politically expedient by the council not to piss off the asian community/to curry favour with them, so as to benefit from the bloc voting.

And the resentment in Blackburn isn't just confined to white people, I spoke with one asian woman, living with her family on a small newbuild estate, her husband had been made redundant nine months previously. She complained about newly arrived asians, who come over following marriage to a British asian, and she was complaining that they were taking jobs from the likes of her husband (British born Asian), because they depressed wages and also expected to be housed and stuff, whereas she and her husband had bought their property and were now struggling to pay the mortgage while he was jobless.

I think that mainstream parties and the media's unwillingness to discuss this kind of thing plays into the hands of racists and the BNP. It is really difficult to discuss these kinds of things while exercising restraint...

I think a lot of the time it isn't so much based on race, it's more a matter of scarce resources having to be stretched beyond breaking point, and people will be resentful of any incomer who's competing for *their* resources.

In rural areas, where there's an issue with second home owners coming along and pricing out the locals, that issue can be discussed sensibly and rationally and logically... but in an urban community where the incomers are more likely to have a different skin colour, then the real issue, the real debate -- of limited resources -- can easily be skewed by playing the race card.

If the mainstream political parties and the media could address these issues, then they would lose their recruiting power for the likes of the BNP. In Blackburn I was really shocked and appalled at the number of homes displaying BNP posters, and the number of people on the doorsteps who would unashamedly admit they were going to be voting for the BNP. But that's because those white working classes are feeling very disempowered -- they can't raise the issue of fairer distribution of resources with their local Labour councillors, many of whom are asian, because they risk being accused of being racist, and they feel, therefore, that the only people supporting them and addressing their concerns are the BNP.

The way to combat the likes of the BNP is to address the issue of the fair distribution of limited and falling resources.
 
John Grean said:
But clearly I was overjoyed to hear that £3 million of British taxpayer's money has been spent on just 18 mansions (some with 7 bedromms) specifically catering to every whim of the Muslim community.

every whim, eh? Got a source for that?
 
John Grean said:
So, whilst most people are lucky if they can get council accomodation at all, Oldham council is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds building mansions for one section of the community.
Here's the bit you seemed unable to comprehend:
All of the 18 homes occupied by Asian families were made available to the wider community.
 
John Grean said:
... £3 million of British taxpayer's money has been spent on just 18 mansions (for) the Muslim community.

'cos everyone knows Muslims can't be British (and even if they are, they never pay their taxes), right?
 
I did, but as I point out in my posts, he's EXACTLY the kind of person who would act as a carrier around a community for such a point - which if the report/press release etc had been handed better could have been a very positive thing.

Ever read the Tipping Point by Malcom Gladwell? There are so many things that the anti-BNP/racist movement could take from it about how to get positive messages about stuff like this through communities using the human, not media, networks that exist in w/c communities.

This kind of frustration will NOT be sorted out by accusations of racism and ignorance at people who belong to a class communities for whom unity and solidarity are more important than other social classes - yes there are dyed-in-the-wool racists, but there are many who aren't 'hardcore' but who see a report like this and wonder why their kids/friends haven't been told/given a chance to apply for new houses etc.
 
That's a bit disigenous Ed, they were marketed at and designed in consultaion with muslim groups, it is clear who then would be the potential occupees. however, I dont really think 18 houses, however expensive, is such a big issue, but i do think it points to what may be come a trend, that may indeed have serious implications.

Here's the bit you seemed unable to comprehend:
Quote:
All of the 18 homes occupied by Asian families were made available to the wider community.
Reply With Quote
 
Kyser, you seem to know this John Grean guy pretty well.

Or are you making as many assumptions about him as you've made about me?
 
John Grean said:
Housing associations are basically the same thing.

this shows that you know nothing. housing association tenants have less rights than council tenants, their tenancies are not secure. also, social housing provided by housing associations in being privatised by the back door. faom january 2007, REITs will be introduced (this was announced in gordon brown last budget. REIT stands for real estate investment trust where city investors will work with housing associations in return presumably for profits....

think before you write.
 
Jonti said:
Kyser, you seem to know this John Grean guy pretty well.

Or are you making as many assumptions about him as you've made about me?

I don't know HIM personally at all, but I've met many people like him when I was growing up when it was 'the blacks' who were 'taking all the jobs and houses'.

I'm just making the point that your snide little comments are exactly the kind of crap that makes this whole issue and debate 100 times harder than it is already.

I grew up listening to neighbours complaining about how their kids were being pushed 'down the list' for housing because of non-white families - when I was a teenager I actually started looking at the council's housing policy (cos it could just have easily affected me had I chosen to remain in my home) and found that NO ONE had jumped the list - it was just that was how the local gossips had spread the 'word' from half remembered conversations with council officers/people putting their own 'spin' on said stories.

As AnnO says - we're talking about people already in dire straits who see what they view as 'their share' of the cake being taken by new arrivals.
 
kyser_soze said:
I did, but as I point out in my posts, he's EXACTLY the kind of person who would act as a carrier around a community for such a point - which if the report/press release etc had been handed better could have been a very positive thing.
tbh, from all his posts, he's just a right-wing prick inventing his own 'history' (used to be in the SWP) to fool the gullible (just mention the IWCA positivel;y and some idiots will lap up whatever you say like a nodding dog). When he deliberately ignores the parts of the article that he quotes from that contradict him - even tho they are there in just as big letters as the rest of it, I cant help but think 'lying tosspot'. Nearly everything I've read by this bloke reaks of bullcrap.

Ever read the Tipping Point by Malcom Gladwell? There are so many things that the anti-BNP/racist movement could take from it about how to get positive messages about stuff like this through communities using the human, not media, networks that exist in w/c communities.
heard of it, I'll try and find a copy. It is certainly true that how to get such messages across has been something the 'left' has been very poor at.

This kind of frustration will NOT be sorted out by accusations of racism and ignorance at people who belong to a class communities for whom unity and solidarity are more important than other social classes - yes there are dyed-in-the-wool racists, but there are many who aren't 'hardcore' but who see a report like this and wonder why their kids/friends haven't been told/given a chance to apply for new houses etc.
I quite agree, and simply accusing whole communities of such racism (as in the appaling Faisal Bodi article in todays guardian http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1830112,00.html) is wholly false and counterproductive. Of course such communities have real concerns which are down to underinvestment and unequal distribution of resources, and plenty of peoples complaints in such circumstances are understandable (even if they are often misplaced and based upon falsehoods).

Tihs example really seems to be a load of crap tho - the homes werent restricted to Asians, they may have been consulted with in the building of them, but thats, in no small part, because it is mainly Asians these days who have such large families. Who else is going to live in the bloody places, a couple with one kid? That would make no sense at all.
 
TBH I think that the whole issue of design in public housing needs to be looked at - it's not just Muslim families with a tradition of local large extended families (I dimly remember reading about the geographical distribution of w/c families tends to be withing a couple of square miles). It was only the whole 'nuclear family' model of the post-war period that spllt traditional w/c family structures - extended families in the same house/street, and in many ways were in part responsible for the begining of fracturing w/c communities.
 
kyser_soze said:
I don't know HIM personally at all, but I've met many people like him when I was growing up when it was 'the blacks' who were 'taking all the jobs and houses'.

I'm just making the point that your snide little comments are exactly the kind of crap that makes this whole issue and debate 100 times harder than it is already.

I grew up listening to neighbours complaining about how their kids were being pushed 'down the list' for housing because of non-white families - when I was a teenager I actually started looking at the council's housing policy (cos it could just have easily affected me had I chosen to remain in my home) and found that NO ONE had jumped the list - it was just that was how the local gossips had spread the 'word' from half remembered conversations with council officers/people putting their own 'spin' on said stories.

As AnnO says - we're talking about people already in dire straits who see what they view as 'their share' of the cake being taken by new arrivals.
So, what's wrong with tackling John Grean's snide little comments, the ones loaded with racist innuendo?

Do you really see him (without a shred of evidence) as one of those people in dire straits who see what they view as 'their share' of the cake being taken by new arrivals?

You'd rather pander to such racist blatherings than challenge them?

Why?
 
mmm, not sure how much of a role the nuclear family played compared with the rest of the changes wrought by the last few decades.

Rising incomes generally means that young people were able to move away younger, and had more choices about where to go. Expansion of HE encourages such moves for a few. For more the simple availability of dosh meant that they could escape the often oppressive weight of having all your family a couple of streets away and knowing exactly what you've been up to!

The destruction of old industries, many if not most of which were pretty well tied to specific local communities has meant that people are travelling all over the shop to go to work, and hence people are more likely to be moving all over the shop for work as well.

And then there is also the specific attempts by councils and other agencies to 're-design' communities in specific ways - bloody 'mixed communities' being just the latest trend, explicitly breaking up communities and bringing in the nice middle classes to 'raise the general tone' of the area.
 
John Grean said:
How wonderful that all of these purpose built mansions were ALL occupied by Muslims.

So you would prefer that a large, extended asian family be shoehorned into a 1 bed flat while some single BNP tosser larges it in a 5 bed 'mansion'? :rolleyes:
 
On a wider point, housing benefit is to be abolished (after a massive campaign to stop it by the left, not!) this is going to create even more overcrowding and ghettoisation.
 
dennisr said:
Agreed - the OP is simply an example of how the BNP can play on it

Now there is the problem. Regardless of any truth the silly end of political thought will take a story and use it to their own advantage.

When did the truth start to matter in politics ? It's more like what you can make of a story that matters.

18 homes from a few thou is a non story - homes built for pakis is a headline.
Any terrorists in there ? :rolleyes:
 
Jonti said:
So, what's wrong with tackling John Grean's snide little comments, the ones loaded with racist innuendo?

Do you really see him (without a shred of evidence) as one of those people in dire straits who see what they view as 'their share' of the cake being taken by new arrivals.

You'd rather pander to such racist blatherings than challenge them?

Why?

I'm not pandering to his racist blatherings - indeed, if he is a BNP type, your response of 'racist' is exactly what he's looking for. You're giving him all the ammunition he would need to go away and say 'Yeah, typical bunch of tossers immediately called me racist and got their knickers in a twist'

You have to come back to stuff like this with CONSIDERED and WELL THOUGHT OUT points, take their argument apart, take the source material apart, none of which you did. You just responded with 'racist'.

Look at the difference between AnnO's post and yours - considered argument and an understanding that this situation is not so simple that throwing around accusations of racism are enough.
 
John Grean said:
Apparently the British left thinks it will combat the far right by shitting on the white working class and treating Muslims to their every whim and desire?
If the council builds housing for large families, and the only people locally who have happen to have such large families are Muslims, so what?

Anyone, muslim or not, black, white or purple with spots can have a large family, and the council has a duty to provide suitable housing.

Providing housing isn't 'every whim and desire' - it is the same right that all UK residents have. It is also not shitting on the "white" working class...

...although your choice of the word "white" has given the game away: there are plenty of people who are "not white" and also non-muslim - just as there are people who are "white" and muslim.

I really suspect that you are a neo-fascist/BNP troll personally.

Are you a member of the BNP?

(edited to add: this is someone who uses words like "Psephologist" yet seems incapable of grasping (pretends they are incapable) basic facst - for example in their Lebanon thread. Smells like a racist troll to me.)
 
John Grean said:
The BBC news yesterday had an item about new council housing which has been built in Oldham as part of the regeneration of the town since the race riots of 2001.

There were 18 beautiful new 5 bedroom houses all of which were to be occupied by Muslims. The council had built these mansions especially for the Muslim community because they have such large families.

So, whilst most people are lucky if they can get council accomodation at all, Oldham council is spending hundreds of thousands of pounds building mansions for one section of the community. Maybe we should have a riot in my area!

If this is Neo Labour's response to combatting the growth of the BNP, could somebody tell them they may have made a mistake. Even the author of the report into the Oldham riots warned that this could be a dangerous move.

Apparently the British left thinks it will combat the far right by shitting on the white working class and treating Muslims to their every whim and desire?
Huh

My racist dealer was using this as part of his rant the other night, shortly before I told him to get the fuck out me house :rolleyes: :mad:
 
kyser_soze said:
I'm not pandering to his racist blatherings - indeed, if he is a BNP type, your response of 'racist' is exactly what he's looking for. You're giving him all the ammunition he would need to go away and say 'Yeah, typical bunch of tossers immediately called me racist and got their knickers in a twist'

You have to come back to stuff like this with CONSIDERED and WELL THOUGHT OUT points, take their argument apart, take the source material apart, none of which you did. You just responded with 'racist'.

Look at the difference between AnnO's post and yours - considered argument and an understanding that this situation is not so simple that throwing around accusations of racism are enough.
You are certainly not challenging Grean on his obvious racism. You seem to be suggesting that would be politically unwise, or something.

We will boldly tackle racism by ignoring it. How terrifically English!

Twat :D
 
jonti said:
Why don't you leave me alone? Just fuck off and go argue with a racist. You won't have far to look.

jonti said:
So, what's wrong with tackling John Grean's snide little comments, the ones loaded with racist innuendo?

Do you really see him (without a shred of evidence) as one of those people in dire straits who see what they view as 'their share' of the cake being taken by new arrivals.

You'd rather pander to such racist blatherings than challenge them?

Why?

Because you asked 'why' I'm saying these things to you. So I explained.

It would help your argument if you could remember what questions you ask of people. The reason I started is because responses like yours DO NOT HELP in arguments like this - all they do is either alienate people or provide ammunition for racists to say 'Look! Look! They don't care about you at all, only their own liberal agendas! We care about YOUR problems!!'
 
Jonti said:
So you would rather pander to racist blatherings than challenge them?

Terrific!
I think the point is that you need to rebutt the claims - in this case about these housing allocations - and set the facts straight.

If you go straight to saying 'racist' then you have left the claims unanswered.

I think you can do both tho' - first of all deal with the claims, deal with a few threads by someone and only then - once their agenda has become clear enough - you can start telling them to fuck off and exposing them for being a racist cunt.
 
Jonti said:
So you would rather pander to racist blatherings than challenge them?

Terrific!

You're a fucking little idiot sometimes aren't you?

Where have I pandered to racist blatherings? Where have I agreed with JG that 'they' get everything? Nowhere. What I've attempted to do is challenge the source, challenge the way it was reported, challenge how the organisations involved have fucked up and how all that can be misinterpreted as meaning 'they' get everything. Instead of just chomping round and calling someone a racist, which gets no one ANYWHERE, is simplistic and ultimately serves the racists more than anyone else.
 
John Grean said:
Housing associations are basically the same thing.
no they are NOT!
whilst a lot of council housing is now run by HAs acting as ALMOs, there is one major difference; you elect councillors.
HAs draw up their own articles, and decide their own accountability structures.
Kyser - sometimes you have to call it like it is. John Grean IS a racist.
 
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