New Abu Gharib Torture Photos

[rogue yam]

How many have been tried and convicted?

All of them.

 

[rogue yam]

It seems to me that the propaganda lines being recited here by yammie and his ilk are primarily designed to deal with the domestic impact of Abu Ghraib, especially among the voters who they're trying to keep onside for November.

This is stupid. We already had a national election in the wake of the Abu Ghraib scandal and the President, and his party, made pretty much a clean sweep of it. Surely you remember all of the leftie sobbing?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Nice selective editing mr potato head. To more accurately represent what I was saying, here's a related post.

I think legalistic arguments are sort of beside the point here. The damage to the US has occurred at a propaganda, rather than a legal level. Calling people names and quibbling using freeper talking points doesn't affect that positively.

It doesn't matter that yammie and other deluded bushbots think everything is fine. What matters is that the US is widely perceived to use political torture, extraordinary renditions to permit torture, kidnappings and so on, as policy. Scapegoating a few degenerate rednecks who were dumb enough to take pictures of themselves doing that stuff is not going to change this.

Once you have a worldwide reputation for doing this kind of stuff, it's likely to be all too easy for your enemies to claim that attacking you, for example through terrorism, is morally justified and so gain an improved chance of convincing some more hot-heads to sign up for a terrorist jihad.

The point being, while you may manage to get a bunch of snake-handling loons to vote for Bush again with domestic news management effectively sweeping such issues under the rug, you've lost the global propaganda war.

 

[rogue yam]

If the US had any guts should have let the Un or the iraqes try them.

This is probably the stupidest remark yet on this whole ludicrous thread. These soldiers violated U.S. military regulations, and their orders, and were duly tried by U.S. military authorities. No one here has demonstrated any fault with the procedures, the verdicts, or the punishments. It is preposterous for you to suggest that it would somehow be courageous for us to throw our defenders to the hands of either a thoroughly corrupt and vindictive (U.N.) or incompetant and partial (Iraqi) authority. The very suggestion that America should or would sacrifice our own in a patently futile attempt to appease moronic, wrongheaded leftists is the absolute height of demented leftie arrogance. You have taken the biscuit.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

This is probably the stupidest remark yet on this whole ludicrous thread. These soldiers violated U.S. military regulations, and their orders, and were duly tried by U.S. military authorities. No one here has demonstrated any fault with the procedures, the verdicts, or the punishments. It is preposterous for you to suggest that it would somehow be courageous for us to throw our defenders to the hands of either a thoroughly corrupt and vindictive (U.N.) or incompetant and partial (Iraqi) authority. The very suggestion that America should or would sacrifice our own in a patently futile attempt to appease moronic, wrongheaded leftists is the absolute height of demented leftie arrogance. You have taken the biscuit.

You are very very very sick, I pray for you, peace child.

 

[rogue yam]

It was never proven in a court of law, because it was never tried as far as I know

False and false. It was tried, and there was found to be no evidence to support the claim that the abusers received orders to abuse.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

released by the Washington Post only a week after Bush claimed that the US does not torture prisoners

http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444

These are the same old pictures.

 

[rogue yam]

blah, blah, blah, ... Karpinski

Karpinski was unqualified and incompetant and should never have achieved the rank she did (thanks Bubba). She screwed up royally. She got busted and forced to retire (contrary to claims here that there was no higher accountability). She is a liar and a disgrace to our uniform and flag, which is why you love her so.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

Karpinski was unqualified and incompetant and should never have achieved the rank she did (thanks Bubba). She screwed up royally. She got busted and forced to retire (contrary to claims here that there was no higher accountability). She is a liar and disgrace to our uniform and flag, which is why you love her so.

She must have had a rough upbringing in the States, guess that's normal in such a violent country though.

 

[rogue yam]

These are the same old pictures.

What I see at that site is a handful of new shots of the same familiar scenes mixed in with the previously released photos of same. Thus, some new shots but no new information. But that is simply not what this thread is about, is it?

 

[rogue yam]

She must have had a rough upbringing in the States, guess that's normal in such a violent country though.

It is amazing, and a bit disturbing, that you don't bore yourself with this crap.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Karpinski was unqualified and incompetant and should never have achieved the rank she did (thanks Bubba). She screwed up royally. She got busted and forced to retire (contrary to claims here that there was no higher accountability). She is a liar and a disgrace to our uniform and flag, which is why you love her so.

I think she was incompetent, but I think the buck doesn't stop with her.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think she was incompetent, but I think the buck doesn't stop with her.

It might not quite have stopped yet. Did you see that stuff above about Colonel Pappas accepting immunity and General Miller pleading the military equivalent of the fifth amendment with regard to setting dogs on prisoners?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It might not quite have stopped yet. Did you see that stuff above about Colonel Pappas accepting immunity and General Miller pleading the military equivalent of the fifth amendment with regard to setting dogs on prisoners?

Accepting immunity from who?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Accepting immunity from who?

As I understood it from the stuff quoted above, he's been offered some sort of deal on his own involvement in return for giving testimony in the court martial of a couple of military dog handlers. Their lawyer thinks Miller told him to order them to set dogs on Iraqis as part of his 'gitmoization' thing.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Here you go:

Miller's decision came shortly after Col. Thomas M. Pappas, the commanding officer at Abu Ghraib, accepted immunity from prosecution this week and was ordered to testify at upcoming courts-martial. Pappas, a military intelligence officer, could be asked to detail high-level policies relating to the treatment of detainees at Abu Ghraib.

He also could shed light on how abusive tactics emerged, who ordered their use and their possible connection to officials in Washington, according to lawyers and human rights advocates who have closely followed the case. Pappas has never spoken publicly. Crawford said Miller was unaware of Pappas's grant of immunity. "This could be a big break if Pappas testifies as to why those dogs were used and who ordered the dogs to be used," said Michael Ratner, president of the Center for Constitutional Rights. "It's a steppingstone going up the chain of command, and that's positive. It might demonstrate that it wasn't just a few rotten apples."

Pappas's attorney, Maj. Jeffery D. Lippert, said yesterday that Pappas would not comment. But he added in an e-mail that "the Commanding General of the Military District of Washington has ordered Col. Pappas to testify if called as a witness in pending courts-martial, and granted him testimonial immunity to facilitate his appearance as a witness."

from the Washington Post story above.

 

[rogue yam]

I think she was incompetent, but I think the buck doesn't stop with her.

I've seen no evidence that there were any improper directives sent down from above Karpinski, nor of any ignored incriminating information sent up from below her (though, of course, I could well have missed something). Further, I do not think improper the level of oversight provided to Karpinski. She had the authority, the responsibility, and the resources to run that prison. She was responsible for what happened and should have prevented it. Abu Ghraib was her facility. I think perhaps she should be in jail, but the military has its own procedures.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It really doesn't matter except in terms of US domestic politics whether you can find plausible scapegoats and excuses for this shit that you can pretend to believe and hector people with.

National differences and the suffering caused by war create an uphill struggle for an occupying force hoping to win local legitimacy. These circumstances sensitize the Iraqi populace to negative interactions with the occupiers. And such interactions - whether directly experienced, seen, or conveyed in stories -- are bound to unfavorably shape the interpretation of subsequent events. An example is provided by the case of an Iraqi woman killed in her car at a US checkpoint in November 2004, as reported by Hamza Hendawi of the Associated Press):

* US troops had been engaged in a firefight with insurgents earlier - so culpability for the woman's death is not entirely clear. But her husband insisted he saw Americans shooting in their direction and argued: "That's what Americans do, isn't that so? They do this all the time in Iraq."52

The grieving husband's assertion does not have to be literally true in order for it to seem so to Iraqis, as indicated by the June 2004 CPA poll, which found a majority of thinking that the behavior demonstrated at Abu Ghraib was typical of all US troops. Cultural alienation and the fact of foreign occupation act to multiply the impact of mistakes and misbehavior.

source

 

[Hanfstaengl]

I hope that all those responsible will be hunted down for the remainder of their lives. There can be no refuge or respite for them, they must be removed from society.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

The CO should have been strung up next to the soldiers that were prosecuted. If it happens under your comand then you are responsible. It's disgraceful that the officers didn't get charged for this.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I hope that all those responsible will be hunted down for the remainder of their lives. There can be no refuge or respite for them, they must be removed from society.

What: for scaring a naked man with a barking dog?

It certainly isn't very nice, but it's not like sawing someone's head off with a breadknife or something.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

What: for scaring a naked man with a barking dog?

It certainly isn't very nice, but it's not like sawing someone's head off with a breadknife or something.

Who mentioned breadknives?

 

[Bob_the_lost]

What: for scaring a naked man with a barking dog?

It certainly isn't very nice, but it's not like sawing someone's head off with a breadknife or something.

It's criminal, it has undoubtably indirectly lead to more deaths of US soldiers, it's a failure of personel to keep to guidelines.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

It's criminal, it has undoubtably indirectly lead to more deaths of US soldiers, it's a failure of personel to keep to guidelines.

I'm tired of apologists for this war which has destroyed so many poor families

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The CO should have been strug up next to the soldiers that were prosecuted. If it happens under your comand then you are responsible. It's disgraceful that the officers didn't get charged for this.

Military Intelligence Colonel Pappas, who was in charge on site and who comes in for heavy criticism in the Taguba report seems to have been offered immunity. Possibly as part of a white wash, but just possibly so he'll testify against General Miller and other Rumsfeld / Cambone stooges.

 

[TAE]

All of them.

You seem very certain. So I'm asking, how many convictions were there?

When you say "all of them", does that include the soldiers in this picture:
http://prisonplanet.com/Pictures/Oct05/251005Abu Ghraib.jpg

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Who mentioned breadknives?

Me: I just did.

 

[Hanfstaengl]

Me: I just did.

I'm anti torture but accept the Americans use it all the time. SAD

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It's criminal, it has undoubtably indirectly lead to more deaths of US soldiers, it's a failure of personel to keep to guidelines.

Yes, it shouldn't have been done that way, no doubt it was wrong.

But you can't help but get the feeling that this is torture Lite. Being forced to strip and wank, having Lynndie pointing at your unit. Being put in a pile of naked bodies. Being forced to stand on a crate with a hood on your head. Being naked and having fierce dogs bark at you.

Personally, if I ever had to be tortured, and may god forbid that, I'd rather be barked at by German Shepherds and be forced to wank, than have the soles of my feet beaten with rods, or having electrodes on my penis instead of my own hand, or be put in one of those cages where you can't sit or stand.

Imagine how mad everyone would be if they'd actually tortured those people in the way most of us imagine when we hear the word 'torture'.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

What: for scaring a naked man with a barking dog?
<snip>

It can have unforseen consequences though, I seem to recall that what hardened the views of Al Qaeda's spiritual mentor Saeed Qutub and turned him into an active apostle of violent jihad was a period in jail where he repeatedly had dogs set on him by the Egyptian secret police.

And that's the bit the apologists for torture keep on missing. It's not what you can dismiss with smart remarks or get a free pass from tame lawyers on at home that matters. It's what torturing people buys you in terms of new and more determined enemies. Using torture legitimises your enemies in the eyes of many people who might have had doubts about them if you'd behaved decently. It's a fantastic propaganda coup for those who regard the US as satanic and want to recruit people in a jihad against it.