New Abu Gharib Torture Photos

[fela fan]

As it is, I am tired of providing free research services to lying crapweasels.

Well then, remove youself from this forum.

 

[nino_savatte]

They did not get away with it. They were informed upon by their fellow soldiers. The proper authorities immediately removed the suspected abusers from their units, arrested them, and charged them with serious crimes. They were subsequently tried and convicted. Now all are serving hard time in U.S. federal prison. These facts are known to all. Anyone who says that the abusers "got away with it" is either a moron or a liar.

The grunts lower down got pinched, the generals higher up enjoyed beaucoup immunity.

 

[nino_savatte]

No it's false, as can easily be proven. Thus there is nothing to "face up to". Here's a proposal: I will spend the five minutes or so that it would take to demonstrate to any reasonable person that what you say is false, and then come back and post the relevant link(s), if you promise in advance that when I do you will post to this thread a personal apology to me, by name, for your being a lazy, dishonest fuckwit. We can set a reasonable time limit, and if I fail to prove you wrong within that time, I will be the one to apologize. As it is, I am tired of providing free research services to lying crapweasels.

Don't flatter yourself; you don't provide research just a load of abuse and white noise. Are you being paid to do this, yammie?

 

[sleaterkinney]

No it's false, as can easily be proven. Thus there is nothing to "face up to". Here's a proposal: I will spend the five minutes or so that it would take to demonstrate to any reasonable person that what you say is false, and then come back and post the relevant link(s), if you promise in advance that when I do you will post to this thread a personal apology to me, by name, for your being a lazy, dishonest fuckwit. We can set a reasonable time limit, and if I fail to prove you wrong within that time, I will be the one to apologize. As it is, I am tired of providing free research services to lying crapweasels.

I don't think so, the leaks happened during the initial investigation, the soldiers weren't arrested until it had concluded - I think you owe me an apology, lets have it shit-for-brains.

 

[rogue yam]

Are you being paid to do this, yammie?

You flatter u75.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

I think legalistic arguments are sort of beside the point here. The damage to the US has occurred at a propaganda, rather than a legal level. Calling people names and quibbling using freeper talking points doesn't affect that positively.

It doesn't matter that yammie and other deluded bushbots think everything is fine. What matters is that the US is widely perceived to use political torture, extraordinary renditions to permit torture, kidnappings and so on, as policy. Scapegoating a few degenerate rednecks who were dumb enough to take pictures of themselves doing that stuff is not going to change this.

Once you have a worldwide reputation for doing this kind of stuff, it's likely to be all too easy for your enemies to claim that attacking you, for example through terrorism, is morally justified and so gain an improved chance of convincing some more hot-heads to sign up for a terrorist jihad.

 

[rogue yam]

I don't think so, the leaks happened during the initial investigation, the soldiers weren't arrested until it had concluded - I think you owe me an apology, lets have it shit-for-brains.

You can't read.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

I think legalistic arguments are sort of beside the point here. The damage to the US has occurred at a propaganda, rather than a legal level. Calling people names and quibbling using freeper talking points doesn't affect that positively.

It doesn't matter that yammie and other deluded bushbots think everything is fine. What matters is that the US is widely perceived to use political torture, extraordinary renditions to permit torture, kidnappings and so on, as policy. Scapegoating a few degenerate rednecks who were dumb enough to take pictures of themselves doing that stuff is not going to change this.

Once you have a worldwide reputation for doing this kind of stuff, it's likely to be all too easy for your enemies to claim that attacking you, for example through terrorism, is morally justified and so gain an improved chance of convincing some more hot-heads to sign up for a terrorist jihad.

Word!

Like how bloody sunday helped increase support for the provos.

 

[dylanredefined]

As much as the thought of a general being tortured to death by the other ranks it really should be by the soldiers of the same army imho .
Espically as supposedly some iraq genrals took cia bribes to put their men in the open for american guns .Are these new photos of a new crime or old photos just released.

 

[nino_savatte]

You flatter u75.

Hardly, it's well known that some posters are paid by certain interest groups to disrupt forums and propagandise. It's clear that you aren't here to do the latter.

 

[nino_savatte]

You can't read.

I rest my case.

 

[TeeJay]

You flatter u75.

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[sleaterkinney]

You can't read.

The abusers were arrested and charged well before the photos were leaked. This is established fact.

C'mon then, show us your proof or STFU.

 

[ViolentPanda]

u75's most tiresome meme makes its appearance right on schedule...

"Most tiresome"?

That'd be you, spud.

 

[TAE]

They did not get away with it. They were informed upon by their fellow soldiers. The proper authorities immediately removed the suspected abusers from their units, arrested them, and charged them with serious crimes. They were subsequently tried and convicted. Now all are serving hard time in U.S. federal prison. These facts are known to all. Anyone who says that the abusers "got away with it" is either a moron or a liar.

How many have been tried and convicted?

 

[Fingers]

As much as the thought of a general being tortured to death by the other ranks it really should be by the soldiers of the same army imho .
Espically as supposedly some iraq genrals took cia bribes to put their men in the open for american guns .Are these new photos of a new crime or old photos just released.

I beleive these are the photos the US government went throught the courts to try and have supressed

 

[Barking_Mad]

u75's most tiresome meme makes its appearance right on schedule...

Add another sorry apologist to the list.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

<snip> Like how bloody sunday helped increase support for the provos.

Pretty much yes. For example, it might be argued that after Abu Ghraib, the chances of any US approved government ever being seen as legitimate by Iraqis fell to something pretty close to zero.

 

[Yuwipi Woman]

You can't read.

Pot
Kettle
Black

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It seems to me that the propaganda lines being recited here by yammie and his ilk are primarily designed to deal with the domestic impact of Abu Ghraib, especially among the voters who they're trying to keep onside for November.

None of the stuff above has the least relevance in terms of world opinion that I can see. Certainly, it's unlikely to make much difference to the average Iraqi's perception of the behaviour of their US conquerours and occupiers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Pot
Kettle
Black

Not really, in wayward spud's case it's "won't read".

 

[dylanredefined]

Well hopefully abu ghraib is slightly better now .Was it ever proved that the
gits who did this were obeying orders or just doing the torture because they could? Either way their officers should have been in the dock ,but,I think most of them got off with nothing more than career black marks .
If the US had any guts should have let the Un or the iraqes try them .
Though the iraq authorties would probably discpline them for poor practicise.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Well hopefully abu ghraib is slightly better now .Was it ever proved that the
gits who did this were obeying orders or just doing the torture because they could? Either way their officers should have been in the dock ,but,I think most of them got off with nothing more than career black marks .
If the US had any guts should have let the Un or the iraqes try them .
Though the iraq authorties would probably discpline them for poor practicise.

It was never proven in a court of law, because it was never tried as far as I know, but what appears to have happened is that US military/spook interrogators seem to have encouraged the dengerate redneck prison guards who were busted to 'soften up' their prisoners as part of the standard procedure.

The general who had been running Guantanamo Bay was sent to 'gitmoize' Abu Ghraib, because people in Rumsfeld's office were not satisfied with the level of information they were getting from Abu Ghraib and wanted to 'get tougher' with the inmates. The intelligence people were running the show according to numerous creditable reports, but the degenerate rednecks were the ones who got caught.

Tons of detail here: http://balkin.blogspot.com/2005/09/anti-torture-memos-balkinization-posts.html

 

[Bernie Gunther]

See e.g.

Over the last year, prisoners released from Guantanamo Bay have alleged they too were subjected to brutal and humiliating detention conditions and interrogations. Maj. Gen. Geoffrey Miller, the former Guantanamo commander recently sent to oversee Iraqi detention facilities, wrote in a report last fall (based apparently on his Guantanamo experiences) that military guards in Iraq should be "enablers for interrogations," actively "engaged in setting the conditions for successful exploitation of the internees." When pressed on how conditions at Abu Ghraib prison would be reformed to prevent further abuses, Miller told reporters, "Trust us. We are doing this right."

source

and

The US commander at the centre of the Iraqi prisoner scandal says she was told to treat detainees like dogs.

Brig Gen Janis Karpinski told the BBC she was being made a "convenient scapegoat" for abuse ordered by others.

Top US commander for Iraq, Gen Ricardo Sanchez, should be asked what he knew about the abuse, she told BBC Radio 4's On The Ropes programme. . . .

Gen Karpinski said more damaging information was likely to emerge at those trials.

Gen Karpinski was in charge of the military police unit that ran Abu Ghraib and other prisons when the abuses were committed. She has been suspended but not charged. . . .

Gen Karpinski said military intelligence took over part of the Abu Ghraib jail to "Gitmoize" their interrogations - make them more like what was happening in the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, which is nicknamed "Gitmo".

She said current Iraqi prisons chief Maj Gen Geoffrey Miller - who was in charge at Guantanamo Bay - visited her in Baghdad and said: "At Guantanamo Bay we learned that the prisoners have to earn every single thing that they have."

"He said they are like dogs and if you allow them to believe at any point that they are more than a dog then you've lost control of them."

Gen Karpinski repeated that she knew nothing of the humiliation and torture of Iraq prisoners that was going on inside Abu Ghraib - she was made a scapegoat.

source

 

[Bernie Gunther]

The interactive guide here gives details of the chain of command, and the roles played by various individuals.

 

[ska invita]

As an aside, did you see Joe Stacco's (of graphic novel "Palestine" fame) * page "Torture" strip?

Here it is in PDF:
http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2006/01/20/fullsacco1.pdf

Its very powerful...

 

[Fruitloop]

brilliant isn't it.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Interestingly, General Miller has pleaded the military version of the 5th amendment, much beloved of mob bosses: "I refuse to answer on the grounds that I might incriminate myself" in a recent trial.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N12106752.htm

and

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/01/11/AR2006011102502_pf.html for more details.

Here's some background on the stuff he's refusing to give evidence about.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-06-17-prison-cover_x.htm

Colonel Pappas, who was in charge of the military intelligence unit, rather than the degenerate redneck prison guards already convicted, has been given immunity.

This raises the interesting possibility, as he is thought by the dog handlers defence lawyers to have transmitted General Miller's orders to set military dogs on prisoners, that he is going to testify to that effect, dropping the General in it.

 

[friedaweed]

Half way through Sy Hersh's book and contrary to the tatty heeds lies the real persecutors are still at large.
That is unless Condi and Rumpfeelers are in cells as i type

 

[rogue yam]

C'mon then, show us your proof or STFU.

First where's my promise, dimwit?