Nationalism: I Fucking Hates It

[Fruitloop]

Steeplejack;

If what you're talking about is a hypothetical nationalism that might exist in some perfect future, somewhere over the rainbow, then it's difficult to continue (and in any case, I really need to do some work). All of these things may come to pass, but history shows that however you define self/other relationships in politics, social tensions tend to create friction along these more or less arbitrary fault lines - and elite groups always tend to capitalise on internal divisions within groups that should have a natural affinity (like social classes) to cement their rule.

It also seems to me that a nation without the accoutrements of nationhood and which is fully devolved as much as practicable is hardly a nation at all in the sense that we have them today, so maybe the thing that you are proposing and the thing that I want to see consigned to the dustbin of history aren't the same thing at all.

 

[steeplejack]

It's not- it's perfectly achievable in the here and now. The ideas I've been discussing with you are absolutely standard in both the Scots and Welsh nationalist movements. Which is why I get pretty pissed off with casual accusations of bigotry, approval of violence, adoration of armies, flags and anthems, made without any evidence to back them up or, it seemed, much interest in finding out what actually was the reality. It's like me dismissing the entirety of socialist and anarchist thought based on the examples of Stalin and Kim Il-Sung.

Anyway, yr right about one thing: time for some work, and I'm off for my daily bike ride as well. Maybe see you later.

 

[Karac]

Some bloke in the Guardians letters page today had it about right..
"Theres a difference between the progressive nationalism of a small country (Irelands sense of identity was forged in its struggle against English landlordism) compared with the jingoism of a powerful nation -ie Bushs America."

 

[steeplejack]

i agree, but nationalism fits very well with the herd mentality. and while US nationalism is completely different politically to scot nationalism, culturally it's the same flag waving instinct that it panders to. the idiots in the US waving flags and saying bomb France, are on the same wavelength as the idiots in scotland waving flags and sayoing kill the english

btw are you looking at my pint?

except no one in Scotland is saying kill the English and wave flags, any more than anyone in England says that.

I think your confusing political nationalism with cultural and social patriotism. Whilst the two intersect, they are far from being the same thing.

I wouldn't touch yer pint you soft Southern shandy drinking bastard.

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

BTW Ninjaboy, when you say 'I hates it' - you sound pure Cardiff.

 

[kakuma]

having reached a kinda point of consensus i would like to say FOOKIN 'ELL a five page thread involving race, class and national identity with a consistently intelligent level of debate

im pretty scared

 

[kakuma]

BTW Ninjaboy, when you say 'I hates it' - you sound pure Cardiff.

it was meant to be 1920s yankee cartoon "I hates it i does"

 

[editor]

it was meant to be 1920s yankee cartoon "I hates it i does"

That sounds even more Splott-esque!

 

[rednblack]

That sounds even more Splott-esque!

sounds just loik sout'ampton as well mush

 

[kakuma]

ahhh shut yer yap!

 

[DrRingDing]

You live in a town full of drunk, obnoxious, hate filled bigoted Scots and Welsh nationalists? Where is this place?

I said I've been on the end of plenty of shit from Scottish and Welsh nationalism, I didn't say I live in a town full of them.

 

[DrRingDing]

In fact my town home town has a lot of Irish. Fuck all Welsh and Scottish but it seems whenever you come across someone who wants to fight you for absolutley no reason apart from your nationality guess what? Their Welsh or Scottish.

Infact even some young welsh woman started having a go at me in a pub because she thought cos I was wearing a suit on a friday night I was a rich english kid , whereas infact I was wearing it because I had been at a funeral earlier

 

[DrRingDing]

And before any twat accuses me of 'rascism!' one of my favourite friends from my home town is welsh.

 

[DrRingDing]

You poor dear. However did you cope?

How do you cope with drunken aggression? Camp bitchy comments?

That'll sort it out for sure

 

[editor]

In fact my town home town has a lot of Irish. Fuck all Welsh and Scottish but it seems whenever you come across someone who wants to fight you for absolutley no reason apart from your nationality guess what? Their Welsh or Scottish.:

So where is this hell hole then and what's its attraction to Scots and Welsh nationalists?

 

[steeplejack]

How do you cope with drunken aggression? Camp bitchy comments?

That'll sort it out for sure

err..by recognising it as drunken aggression usually, and countering it, rather than as a deep seated expression of a chauvinistic nationalism.

If you bother to read the thread most of your pisspoor adolescencies re: nationalism have been discussed from a range of viewpoints.

'Nationalism smells of poo. End of.'

Beat that for a valuable and well researched insight!

 

[DrRingDing]

March, Cambridgeshire. Shit Hole.

Working here is an attraction for a lot of outsiders.

 

[DrRingDing]

err..by recognising it as drunken aggression usually, and countering it, rather than as a deep seated expression of a chauvinistic nationalism.

Someone once said you only hear the truth from drunks and children and I'd say there was a fair bit of truth to that.

 

[steeplejack]

well, I simply don't agree.

I don't doubt you've had a mouthful of abuse from a pissed Scot in March.

I've had similar from several Englishmen in the pub I used to work in.

Do I extrapolate from that that all Englishmen are racists and die hard Scots haters who'd like nothing more than to kill 'all yoo Jock cunts?'

No. I see a pissed arsehole in an unpleasantly bright pink Ben Sherman shirt who's had too much Stella, and who's spoiling for a fight on the flimsiest of pretexts.

 

[kakuma]

No. I see a pissed arsehole in an unpleasantly bright pink Ben Sherman shirt who's had too much Stella, and who's spoiling for a fight on the flimsiest of pretexts.

who calls himself layabout

 

[Wess]

All of them!?? That must of been one hell of a big pub

...not really...but it had a good sized beer garden.

 

[rednblack]

No. I see a pissed arsehole in an unpleasantly bright pink Ben Sherman shirt who's had too much Stella, and who's spoiling for a fight on the flimsiest of pretexts.

sorry

 

[_Russ_]

Its like Football fans only with countries instead of teams, same tribal shit