Nationalism: I Fucking Hates It

[Hollis]

The fact that a cool website is run by a Welshman will give many kids heart.

hahahahaha....

 

[ChocolateTeapot]

I would consider myself a Scottish nationalist. I'm not hate-filled in regard to English people: of the English people I've met, I've liked many more than I've disliked. I just don't particularly enjoy being ruled by them.

I've heard so many times from Englsih people though that "the UK should be preserved to maintain our status in the world, that we have so much in common, need to stick together, small countries would stuggle in the modern world" etc. If I then say that I am enthusiastic about the EU, the argument seems to suddenly become "they'll swamp us and rule by diktat without understanding us, take away our identity, we need to maintain our 'sovereignty'".

CT

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

Europe's a continent, silly.

Thats what I said, it's not a country.

 

[steeplejack]

The amount of shit I've even had in my home town from hard done by Scots and Welsh nationalists is fucking ridiculous, drunk, obnoxious, hate filled bigots.

You poor dear. However did you cope?

 

[Poi E]

Fucking booze!

 

[JenkinsEars]

well you are as much a european as welsh citizen since you were born in both territories...

sorry to break it to you

Bollocks.

 

[kakuma]

if wales wasnt in the european union you would have to get a visa to go to france. and wales would have to pay massive import and export taxes to england

and they wouldnt have lent all that money to wales

i'm not a monarchist but i do recognise the fact that england has a monarchy and is not a republic

you get me?

edit:i'd love to stay and chat, btu SOME of us have work to do hehe

 

[Fruitloop]

Also, the three parties who spend the most time banging on about National Identity and the threat from Brussels (of decent working conditions and the like) are the fash BNP, the fash-lite Tory party, and the semi-skimmed fascists in UKIP. That must tell you something?

 

[rednblack]

I just don't particularly enjoy being ruled by them.

what like tony blair, gordon brown, john reid etc???

 

[RubberBuccaneer]

No No No Look

Where in Europe is Wales?

 

[editor]

The amount of shit I've even had in my home town from hard done by Scots and Welsh nationalists is fucking ridiculous, drunk, obnoxious, hate filled bigots.

You live in a town full of drunk, obnoxious, hate filled bigoted Scots and Welsh nationalists? Where is this place?

 

[steeplejack]

I'd like to know that, too.

 

[editor]

Diesn't nationalism fall into the 'more harm than good' category?

Dunno. You tell me what harm I'm doing when I'm singing along with the Welsh national anthem or telling people that I'm Welsh?

 

[rednblack]

You live in a town full of drunk, obnoxious, hate filled bigoted Scots and Welsh nationalists? Where is this place?

brigadoon?

 

[steeplejack]

No, apparently it's in England. The Scots 'll be taking our jobs and the Welsh our women, next.



let me guess...DUAF's an....*deep sigh* 'anarchist'......

 

[rednblack]

let me guess...DUAF's an....*deep sigh* 'anarchist'......

definately not - not if his post record is anything to go by

 

[steeplejack]

wtf is he then? other than a twat, obviously....

 

[rednblack]

wtf is he then? other than a twat, obviously....

a liberal

 

[steeplejack]

 

[Relahni]

Nationalism confuses me....

I always snigger to myself when I hear someone go on about how proud they are to be <insert nationality here> - and continue that others just simply couldn't understand the proudness they have....

I guess though, I'm pretty proud of my Spanish genes - probably less so of my English genes - although my English genes are related to the great Jackie Milburn - you know. So I guess I should be proud....

 

[Fruitloop]

Dunno. You tell me what harm I'm doing when I'm singing along with the Welsh national anthem or telling people that I'm Welsh?

None. Nationalism clearly has harmful and harmless characteristics, but on balance I think a strong affiliation for a nation-state hasn't been a particularly healthy habit, historically speaking.

Clearly anthem-singing is one of the less harmful nationalist pursuits.

 

[Yossarian]

Nationalism just seems a little petty. Nothing wrong with being pleased about where you're from but it can all to easily get taken to ridiculous and harmful extremes and become jingoism. People who let nationalism become the main focus of their lives ought to look around for something more worthwhile to fill their life with.

 

[steeplejack]

Can we just be clear on what we;re actually talking about here?

Nationalism as a cultural phenomena (anthem singing, flag waving, personal identification with the nation state) and nationalism as a political phenomena (which i take to mean the SNP and Plaid, as we're specifically talking about scotland and Wales, and not the BNP)

 

[Hollis]

Yeah nationalism's all right at the level of theme pubs, football, demonstrating who has the best national dance etc - apart from that I think in practical day-to-day terms its increasingly redundant in a multicultural society with widespread immigration, integration etc, etc, etc.

 

[steeplejack]

But there's a difference between ethnic nationalism (which opposes multiculturalism, immigration, integration etc) and civic nationalism, which doesn't really care about all those things.

 

[Fruitloop]

Both glorify the nation-state club. The only difference is the membership criteria.

 

[editor]

Yeah nationalism's all right at the level of theme pubs, football, demonstrating who has the best national dance etc - apart from that I think in practical day-to-day terms its increasingly redundant in a multicultural society with widespread immigration, integration etc, etc, etc.

What about Asians/Blacks etc describing themselves as "Welsh"?

....Mr Phillips (head of the Commission for Racial Equality) also said people from ethnic minorities could find it easier to integrate into Welsh communities than they would in England.

"I think it may be rather easier for people to be Asian and Welsh or Black and Welsh than Asian and English or Black and English," he said.

"The Welsh have always identified with two things, with being a minority and not being English."

He believed the contribution of ethnic communities was part of the Welsh identity, with a "substantial migration community" in south Wales for many years.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4369373.stm

 

[oisleep]

But there's a difference between ethnic nationalism (which opposes multiculturalism, immigration, integration etc) and civic nationalism, which doesn't really care about all those things.

yes, as i understand it the nationalism that existed in the late 19th & early 20th centuries were more civic, and just concentrated on building a nation (albeit mainly based upon the culture of the dominant ethnie) and homogenising the nation through education & media to control the recently franchised populace and make them useful to capital through the period of upheavel that was industrialisation and urbanisation, i.e. in France, it didn't matter if you were Alsatian, Basque, Catalan, Breton etc.. as long you went along with the new ideals of the french nation (and learned the language) you were french.

The ethnic nationalism that seemed to arise a bit later seems pretty different and more exclusive and this seems to be the nationalism that everyone bangs on about now, and seems to be where all the badness comes from

 

[steeplejack]

Fruitloop

errr....or the difference is that one group has no problems with the Holocaust, say, and relies on myth and falsehood to determine the criteria for its national community, and the other has a major problem with the above processes. Which is quite a substantial difference no one appears to want to recognise.

 

[Yossarian]

What about Asians/Blacks etc describing themselves as "Welsh"?

How do they feel about this kind of thing always being brought up?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/2076470.stm