Nationalisation.

[belboid]

“Ripping people off”? As if the punters share your moral aversion to profit. What are you advocating? Quasi-Christian social values. I doubt your plumber, sparks or pizza delivery man advertises their competitors' prices, what makes some other arbitrary business so special?

fuck off and get back to putting people on the dole, theres a good little cunt

 

[LLETSA]

Compelled to make "me" the topic of the thread again LLETSA. Good stuff. Feed my vanity.

To note that the record's still stuck isn't to feed your vanity, loony tunes.

Gosh, quasi-Christian values again. What pioneering thought you treat us to!

 

[LLETSA]

fuck off and get back to putting people on the dole, theres a good little cunt

He'd have to actually leave his computer and move off the patio to put anybody on the dole.

Too busy talking to his internet sock puppets.

 

[glenquagmire]

This is your post, what did I miss in my laziness:



You are of course right, my experience of both systems is nonsense. It's not a nonsense to state wages have gone up "significantly" in the past 15 years, no, of course not.

Your experience is worth no more or less than anyone else's. I won't bother pulling apart the rest of your crap which belboid disposed of. You ignored the main point which was about the underinvestment BR was suffering from for many years.

 

[belboid]

There was some polling done a few months back showing that about 70% of the people would like to see utilities re-nationalised.

I've linked it a couple of times to make the point that there is nobody that ~70% can realistically vote for to achieve such a renationalisation.

(working right now, so no time to go dig for it)

this one i guess

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/mar/11/renationalisation-poll-peoples-charter

 

[LLETSA]

Compelled to make "me" the topic of the thread again LLETSA. Good stuff. Feed my vanity.

It can happen. When a complacent firm, maybe with captive customers, experiences market shock and needs refinancing, say. The decline can be turned around by downsizing, something to which state owned businesses are somewhat more averse.

The world economy is dominated by vast untouchable private corporations that are very bit as bureaucratic and inefficient as nationalised ones. And their bureaucracies are more untouchable.

Why are you always going back and editing your posts to add afterthoughts when that particular post has been left behind? You should start a new one.

 

[Carousel]

fuck off and get back to putting people on the dole, theres a good little cunt

Ha ha. Keep peddling the "Right to Work" victim boy.

 

[LLETSA]

Ha ha. Keep peddling the "Right to Work" victim boy.

Different subject, same comments from Rodney.

Say something new for a change.

 

[Carousel]

The world economy is dominated by vast untouchable private corporations that are very bit as bureaucratic and inefficient as nationalised ones. And their bureaucracies are more untouchable.

Kinda. I’d say their bureaucracies are somewhat more sackable, but it’s a minor quibble. Of more substance is the matter of efficiency, which is essentially self defined in the private sector and so not really comparable with efficiency as far as state owned businesses is concerned because the corporate goals are somewhat vague or contradictory.

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought people were doing a good job of ignoring single issue numpty

Look, Carousel ascribes all motivations or actions to quasi religious morality. That's his only point.

 

[belboid]

Still are overwhelmingly, its just that he likes the sound of his own voice so much, he'll carry on regardless

 

[LLETSA]

I thought people were doing a good job of ignoring single issue numpty

Look, Carousel ascribes all motivations or actions to quasi religious morality. That's his only point.

He has a tendency to get in the way of sensible discussion with it, though.

(Wait for the reply: it'll go something like, 'Ho ho, what do you think is so important about discussion, Christian debating society, boy scouts blah, blah', as if he's the only person in the world to have discovered the ultimate pointlessness of internet forums-and ignoring the fact that he spends more time on them that most.)

 

[Carousel]

I thought people were doing a good job of ignoring single issue numpty

Look, Carousel ascribes all motivations or actions to quasi religious morality. That's his only point.

"Good job" yourself. As for single "issues", it's not me that frames every matter into some trite treatise on moral justice.

 

[Random]

Is it a clear fact that ticket prices have gone up far faster on the trains after privatisation? It seems to me that only richer people and those on business expenses can afford to take the train these days, apart from short commutes to and from major cities.

 

[London_Calling]

You ignored the main point which was about the underinvestment BR was suffering from for many years.

I didn't see you make that point: Another way to put the same issue would be to say the level of taxpayer subsidy to the industry, at times, only covered operations costs.

The goverment apportioned monies according to the goverment's priorities - which would include the reluctance to raise taxes at certain points in the 5-year cycle, and to reduce taxes similarly.

Investment in all centrally run UK organisations - including railways, schools and the NHS - was subject to the goverments electoral needs. It was no way to run an industry that needs 10 or 20 year investment plans.

 

[DotCommunist]

I should be ashamed of my christian morality, of course. You'd be better getting a rise out of someone who is totally unaware of the basis of his moral and ethical judgements Carousel.

Anyway, let us not make this thread about you and your bizarre obsession.

 

[Random]

He has a tendency to get in the way of sensible discussion with it, though.

Just put him on ignore, stop multiplying his effectiveness by replying to him again and again.

 

[Carousel]

There was some polling done a few months back showing that about 70% of the people would like to see utilities re-nationalised.

In the misguided belief that nationalised utilities can be made subject to price controls and legally backed continuity of supply. The actual matter to hand is the extent to which it's desirable (or for that matter possible) to supply energy, water, transport or healthcare as public goods. No trivial matter.

 

[LLETSA]

Just put him on ignore, stop multiplying his effectiveness by replying to him again and again.

I don't mind replying to him.

 

[belboid]

Investment in all centrally run UK organisations - including railways, schools and the NHS - was subject to the goverments electoral needs. It was no way to run an industry that needs 10 or 20 year investment plans.

investment plans which the privatised services haven't implemented either. Not a very good argument for your case.

 

[LLETSA]

"Good job" yourself. As for single "issues", it's not me that frames every matter into some trite treatise on moral justice.

You're oblivious to the way that you're no more than the mirror image of what you think you're criticising.

 

[Random]

I don't mind replying to him.

well then stop complaining that he 'gets in the way' of sensible discussion.

 

[glenquagmire]

I didn't see you make that point: Another way to put the same issue would be to say the level of taxpayer subsidy to the industry, at times, only covered operations costs.

The goverment apportioned monies according to the goverment's priorities - which would include the reluctance to raise taxes at certain points in the 5-year cycle, and to reduce taxes similarly.

Investment in all centrally run UK organisations - including railways, schools and the NHS - was subject to the goverments electoral needs. It was no way to run an industry that needs 10 or 20 year investment plans.

Eh? And commercial franchises issued on a five year basis with the imperative to return dividends to shareholders every 12 months is a better way to plan for the future?

And you do realise that capital investment in rail infrastructure is still done by the govt?

 

[LLETSA]

well then stop complaining that he 'gets in the way' of sensible discussion.

Why? That's exactly what he does.

 

[kropotkin]

Kinda. I’d say their bureaucracies are somewhat more sackable, but it’s a minor quibble. Of more substance is the matter of efficiency, which is essentially self defined in the private sector and so not really comparable with efficiency as far as state owned businesses is concerned because the corporate goals are somewhat vague or contradictory.

Capitalism isn't efficient- that is a fallacy.

Think of the information flow, and think from a wider, social-scale perspective.
R+D is often duplicating the work already been done elsewhere, wrapped up in non-disclosure agreements. Breakthroughs are kept secret so as to maximise competitive advantage. Massive amounts of time, money and energy are therefore redundant. That is not efficiency, it is its polar opposite.

Tey and restrict your discussion of this point to the specifics- there is nothing Christian about anything in the above three lines.

 

[LLETSA]

Capitalism isn't efficient- that is a fallacy.

Think of the information flow, and think from a wider, social-scale perspective.
R+D is often duplicating the work already been done elsewhere, wrapped up in non-disclosure agreements. Breakthroughs are kept secret so as to maximise competitive advantage. Massive amounts of time, money and energy are therefore redundant. That is not efficiency, it is its polar opposite.

Tey and restrict your discussion of this point to the specifics- there is nothing Christian about anything in the above three lines.

He doesn't think there is anything particularly efficient about capitalism. He simply thinks he's winding up excitable lefties and hopes to attract gullible admirers for his fearless challenging of 'left-wing sacred cows'.

 

[Carousel]

Capitalism isn't efficient- that is a fallacy

I didn't say it was. Besides, there’s no single standard of efficiency to base your evaluation on. Try and restrict your discussion of this point to the specifics - there is nothing Christian about anything in the above three lines.

R+D is often duplicating the work already been done elsewhere, wrapped up in non-disclosure agreements. Breakthroughs are kept secret so as to maximise competitive advantage. Massive amounts of time, money and energy are therefore redundant. That is not efficiency, it is its polar opposite.

It transpires that as emotional beings, what ostensibly appears to be competition for its own sake is actually more “efficient”.

 

[kropotkin]

What was the point of this statement then

Of more substance is the matter of efficiency, which is essentially self defined in the private sector and so not really comparable with efficiency as far as state owned businesses is concerned because the corporate goals are somewhat vague or contradictory.

If all you are saying is that the different modes of production use different definitions of efficiency....what? How is that a point? Does it connect to anything else you have written?

 

[JimW]

A lot of the early recorded riots involved people capturing corn coming into market and selling it at a fair price during years of high prices - half the battle in the early years of capitalism was removing the idea that there was a moral aspect to the economy, and only a fatuous twat would imagine that popular morality was simply Christian. Do we have a fatuous twat available?

 

[Louis MacNeice]

...it's me that tries to frame every matter into some trite treatise on moral justice...

Corrected