National Union of Students

[Das Uberdog]

Wow, ma-an! Your analysis has like, totally blown my mind, man! I like, totally see the world in a different like now, like, wo-o-wwww.....

 

[urbanrevolt]

Obviously we should oppose any racism shown towards Jewish students or any other students for example by supporting antiracist initiatives to campaign against the BNP, including disrupting any attempts they make to organise on campuses or in the communities, to oppose deportations or any discrimnatory treatment of migrants (such as highrer fees or lack of access to courses)

But to conflate this with support for Palestine, for the right of return and support the resistance to the Israeli attacks as anti-semitic is disgraceful, part of an attempt by certain bourgeois forces to smear the Palestine solidarity movement. There may of course be chauvinist comments and we should of course condemn and oppose them but it is not the case that supporting the right of Palestinians to have democrtatic rights and the right of return is by some strange twisiting of logic 'racist' or 'antisemitic'.

Respect in my opinion is opportunist by not arguing for a working class socialist politics but in terms of supporting the right of Palestinians, being against the occupation in Iraq (though sometimes some of their members equivocal about what that actually means) and against racism including islamophobia then socialists should be on their side in that argument.

 

[KeyboardJockey]

You're blatantly a stupid fucktard, KJ. .

Leading with an insult - nice. Gives an indication of the sort of intellectual education that you got at uni.

Jewish students don't suffer any palatable racism on University campuses in this country... .

As I have said before this is NOT what I'm hearing. Jewish students suffer racism in general life and on campus just as other minority groups do. The recent Government report showed a rise in anti semitic incidents.

So ISOC book idiot Islamic scholars with no tact and even less idea about international politics to speak at their meetings? .

And that is not so bad as bringing in a 'kill the p**is' speaker

The difference between the kind of racist nonsense espoused by certain ISOCs and Hizbut groups in universities today and the kind of racist filth seen in BNP or Nazi publications is that Islamic anti-Semitism exists almost solely as a reaction to the brutality of the Israeli state, .

Bullshit. Unlike other supporters of the idea of the State of Israel I'm quite prepared to say when and where things have gone wrong. I also believe that during the creation of the state there were atrocities committed by both Arab and Jew this must be recognised by both sides. There have been huge failiures in Israeli government policy that has sometimes made the situation worse. It might help you to think who benefits from the Palestinian abject situation? It certainly isn't Israel. There are a whole load of Arab governments who use the Palestinian issue to deflect criticism of their own regimes.

I think you will also find that Islamic antisemitism goes back a lot further than the creation of the State of Israel.

and is still not an ideology of superiority or inferiority, but rather an ideology of association. Real life association. The oppressed reaching towards reactionary ideas is blatantly not fascism, it's blatantly the only reasonable outcome you could predict considering the hardship those people must suffer..

So using your argument it is OK for oppressed white working class people who have suffered under Thatcher and Blair to vote BNP? After all they are an oppressed people who are reaching for reactionary ideas arn't they?

If you seriously believe that Jewish students are feeling 'threatened' on campus then either you've been talking to some fucking pussy Jewish students or you've been talking to some Zionist/neoliberal/neoconservative wankers who'd have you believe such bollocks. Name me the last racial assault on a Jewish student at University. Or actually, nationally. Go on - try and find one..

Sometimes attacks do not have to be a physical boot to the face but low and medium level intimidation. See Times article below.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/education/article1563917.ece

This sort of racist shit needs to be nipped in the bud early I'm sure that being the fair minded person you appear to be you would be equally condemning of anti muslim graffiti and insults being hurled at female students for wearing the veil? The problem is when people of the left scream loudly about Islamophobia but ignore of denigrate complaints of anti semitism.

BTW I consider myself a socialist zionist who believes that the state of Israel has a right to exist and that the Law or Return should still hold and that it should live in peace with its neighbours and be a positive force in the region. Shame some of its' neighbours refuse to live in peace with Israel. I'm in no way a 'neo-con' and think that neo con policies make the world more dangerous as has been proved with Iraq.

I think the time has come to sit down and thrash out a deal where individual Palestinians are handsomely compensated for the problems in the past. Personally I'd like to see each Palestinian and the descendents thereof who was living in the Mandate Territory / Israel during the period of 1945 - 1949 given compensation of at least £250.000 each. Don't forget it was Arab landlords who sold land to Jewish settlers in the period from 1900 - 1930 and Arab landlords who sold the land from under the feet of their tenant farmers. Life and history is not black and white and if the region is to move forward then this must be acknowledged.

Plus, your 'Muslim Communalist' line is trite and overused. .

Maybe you should observe the political shenanigans in areas like Newham where the communalism of Respect was there for all to see. I don't think that religion should have the influence on politics that it would plainly like. I'd feel equally uncomfortable with a Jewish Party or a Catholic Party or a Worship-the-flying-spaghetti-monster-or-go-to-hell Party

I'm sure that New Labour, in your eyes, are the only organisation which can keep out the BNP in working class wards, rather than the actual fact of the matter which is that New Labour are the cause of BNP successes... .

I agree that the sheer arrogance of NL has been a factor in the BNP successes but don't confuse me with wankers like Searchlight etc who constantly call for a vote for NL to keep out the bnp. NL is the last party that people should vote for.

What on Earth are Respect saying which is any more communalist than any other Party's shite? Oh yeah, we're supporting Palestine and being the loudest voice against Islamophobia! How silly of me, these issues clearly have no place within communities with large Asian populations...

The problem is is Respect ONLY talks loud about Islamophobia (and yes I do believe Islamophobia exists) and Palestine (and on that they stir the shit for electoral advantage rather than work towards a just settlement)- and does nothing else. How can that NOT be communalist. When Respect becomes a secular party that cares for all the oppressed then I might take them seriously.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

KeyboardJockey you support Israel and Zionism. Therefore you cannot support a just settlement. You cannot be a genuine anti-racist.

Israel defines itself a Jewish state. Yet one-fifth of it's inhabitants are Arab and have less civil rights than their Jewish counterparts - this is racism. Imagine if Britain said that Jews couldn't live on 96% of the land in the UK. This would make Britain a pariah state, yet substitute the word "arab" for "Jew" and you have the reality of the state of Israel. Israel is a state based on the exclusion of it's indigenous population. Israel refuses to allow the right of return to Palestinian refugees to their homeland because it would undermine the Jewish nature of the state. This is racism. Socialism is incompatible with Zionism, because Zionism is predicated on the denial of rights to Palestinians.

You repeat the old slur about Palestinians or their supporters wanting "to drive the Jews into the sea". This lie used to be spread about the PLO. The PLO DID support the destruction of the State of Israel but in the same way as Irish republicans support the destruction of Northern Ireland as a political entity. In fact, far from advocating ethnic cleansing, the position of the PLO up until they adopted (wrongly) a 2 state solution was to advocate a secular, democratic state in all of historical Palestine where Jewish and Arab citizens would have equal rights.

But this lie is also crass because it is a complete reversal of what has actually happened. It is Palestinians who are being driven out and having their houses demolished not Israeli Jews.

Your history is also flawed.

Some Arab landlord's did sell land to Zionists colonists in the 30's and 40's. The land purchased legally amounted to less than 10% of historical Palestine.
The Zionists stole the other 90%. Also Zionism was not a project to just settle in historic Palestine, it was a project to settle in Palestine and ethnically cleanse it of it's indigenous people.

You say that Palestinians should be given financial compensation. Actually under international law, Palestinians have the right to return.

Keyboard Jockey it is hillarious that you talk about communalism when you are a supporter of Zionism, which is a form of communalism that has caused misery for both it's practitioners and it's victims

 

[Laura Sc]

> The AWL/ENS actually are part of the Union of Jewish Students/Labour Party bloc.

Could someone justify this please? This is just nonsense. It's also ironic given that eg last year the oh-so-radical SWSS leadership, Student Broad Left etc voted with NOLS, UJS etc on faith schools. And that they regularly vote with the leadership, eg on bringing in a £100,000 management consultant to make cuts to democracy.

> The AWL use their position on NUS as an obstacle to supporting the anti-war movement. For example, a friend of mine who was president of NUS Wales in the run-up to the Iraq war, told me that they tried to block affiliation to the StWC on the basis that StWC called demonstrations with the MAB.

Except that's just not true! Your friend is lying or confused. The NEC motion to affiliate to Stop the War was a joint one between us, the SWP and Broad Left. We do support affiliating to Stop the War, albeit with criticisms. (Could you tell your friend this so they stop spreading untruths?)

> We also have the incredible situation where the NUS exec failed to pass a motion calling for a ceasefire during the Lebanon War, but did find time to pass a AWL sponsored motion attacking George Galloway for a speech that he made at a StWC demo against the invasion of Lebanon.

Missing fact: the only anti-war pro-ceasefire motion to the NEC was from us - SWSS and Broad didn't submit anything for some reason. It was voted down by NOLS, UJS etc, but it was us who submitted it!

Aren't you embarrassed telling this many blatant lies?

 

[Das Uberdog]

Leading with an insult - nice. Gives an indication of the sort of intellectual education that you got at uni.

a) I'm first year at college
b) You think that I don't take unjustified or mystical ramblings about Respect policy as an insult? The kind of statements making the presumption that opposition to Respect is a universally intellectually accepted position aren't insulting to someone like me, who has devoted countless hours to supporting the organisation? Now I'm sorry, but fuck off.

Bullshit. Unlike other supporters of the idea of the State of Israel I'm quite prepared to say when and where things have gone wrong.

I know plenty of Zionists who claim to oppose many of Israel's State actions... I know many Zionists who are fully aware of the Nazi origins of Zionist philosophy... I know many Zionists who fully understand the trauma Palestineans have to live through on a daily basis yet continue to believe that the existance of a seperate Jewish state is the only way to safeguard the rights of World Jewry...

But I know of none who understand all these factors and would still question the statement that it is 'the existance and continued oppression of Israel which has lead to anti-Semitism working it's way into Islamic culture'. Anti-Semitism is a Foul Western export which has not existed in Islamic nations up until the last century... And yes there are many corrupt Arab States who use Palestine as a scapegoat to conceal their own failings. But that isn't a reflection of Islamic world culture or public sentiment, that's a reflection of dodgy, pottering old Islamic regimes (almost all of which are dodgy and pottering with quasi-dictatorships as a result of American/European imperialist foreign policy) using whichever nationalist or religious means at their disposal to prevent their own demise. And in the large majority of situations, especially since the successes of uncorrupt parties such as Hamas and Hizbollah in Lebanon and Palestine, it is failing drastically (see Egyptian strike wave for example).

So using your argument it is OK for oppressed white working class people who have suffered under Thatcher and Blair to vote BNP? After all they are an oppressed people who are reaching for reactionary ideas arn't they?

The difference between the physical manifestations of fascism and simple reactionism on the street is that fascism mobilises the oppressed to attack the more oppressed - whereas reactionism is generally simply a direct reaction to oppression. Whereas Muslims in this country, I would say, are currently bottom of the pile in almost all concievable areas of social 'treatment' (fwobw), the Jewish population suffers no more racism than any other group in reality. This isn't the 80s, the National Front aren't out on the streets beating their drums anymore. Anti-Semitism has (quite rightly) become completely unacceptable in British society and is working it's way out of the ideological thought processes of society too.

The worst that Islamic Anti-Semitism comes to is Islamic scholars bleating on about nonsense in the confines of their own little clique of intellectually elitist circles - and almost all of it is directly linked to the Israeli state. The Muslim population is by far too oppressed and marginalised to be able to mount any kind of campaigning on these issues, and regardless - the anti-semetic feeling is a direct reaction to Israeli policy. This is the most mild-mannered response you could possibly hope for in my opinion.

The fascists on the other hand, mobilise oppressed workers to attack more oppressed workers under the delusion that the more oppressed (and thus, in practice, more socially deviant, deprived, etcetera) are dragging down the lot for everyone else, and are the real source of poverty, inequality, etcetera. This is a substantial and quantitative difference.

In response to your article, none of the actual physical manifestations of intimidation are actually listed, and since it's coming from the Times, I'm going to quite rationally assume that it's all bollocks or severely distorted. I must say, the line;

"A recent Commons report highlighted... a lack of respect by lecturers and tutors for the needs of observant (??!??!!) Jewish students and a growing tolerance of extreme language against Israel during student debates on the Middle East."

Both do suggest to me that the article is confusing anti-Semitism with anti-Zionism, as have the NUJS and their wankshite definition.

 

[Laura Sc]

PS More evidence that what has been said about the AWL and the war in Lebanon is a lie. Here is what ENS said, fully supported by us:

http://www.free-education.org.uk/?p=221

 

[Das Uberdog]

> The AWL/ENS actually are part of the Union of Jewish Students/Labour Party bloc.

Could someone justify this please? This is just nonsense. It's also ironic given that eg last year the oh-so-radical SWSS leadership, Student Broad Left etc voted with NOLS, UJS etc on faith schools. And that they regularly vote with the leadership, eg on bringing in a £100,000 management consultant to make cuts to democracy.

In practice you are - you use your idiotically simple-minded ideas on Palestine and Iran specifically to attack the left - knowing full well that you're banking upon the support of NUJS/Labour to make the rest of us look stupid. You slate Galloway as some divine representative of the Respect student movement randomnly with lies (mentioned above), again encouraging the Labour students to rally round your cause and as mentioned, Sofie Buckland was elected to bloc of 12 with more votes than anyone else - for which she absolutely must have relied upon the support of Labour students. Evidently, they see you as an effective block in the way of real leftwing progress in the Union, seeing as the only issue you really seem to disagree with them on (which isn't about some complex and pinickity piece of NUS legislature) seems to be whether or not to have a demonstration over top-up fees.

You'd sooner slate your friends than the corruption at the top of NUS - you're a true friend of New Labour.

> The AWL use their position on NUS as an obstacle to supporting the anti-war movement. For example, a friend of mine who was president of NUS Wales in the run-up to the Iraq war, told me that they tried to block affiliation to the StWC on the basis that StWC called demonstrations with the MAB.

Except that's just not true! Your friend is lying or confused. The NEC motion to affiliate to Stop the War was a joint one between us, the SWP and Broad Left. We do support affiliating to Stop the War, albeit with criticisms. (Could you tell your friend this so they stop spreading untruths?)

> We also have the incredible situation where the NUS exec failed to pass a motion calling for a ceasefire during the Lebanon War, but did find time to pass a AWL sponsored motion attacking George Galloway for a speech that he made at a StWC demo against the invasion of Lebanon.

Missing fact: the only anti-war pro-ceasefire motion to the NEC was from us - SWSS and Broad didn't submit anything for some reason. It was voted down by NOLS, UJS etc, but it was us who submitted it!

Aren't you embarrassed telling this many blatant lies?[/QUOTE]

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm not a student but from what I'm hearing it is the Jewish students who are feeling intimidated on campus not the Muslim students.

More like both. Each of 'em have "supporters" who are shit-stirrers of the first water. In the case of Muslim students, it's "Respect", in the case of Jewish students it's the AWL with their tongue firmly up the UJS's arse.

I recently spoke to a member of the UJS who said the situation in some Universities is bordering on the intolerable. Pro Palestinian groups (run in the main by people who have no knowledge or experience of the area but a burning desire to be part of a 'cause') are booking speakers who are coming out with some really nasty antisemitic filth which if peddled by white fascists would be rightly condemned.

Just as long as you're as hot to condemn the Islamophobia as you are the Judaeophobia, mate.

 

[Tom A]

I was reading ENS' website a few months ago, they came across as a breath of fresh air, finally someone who was willing to challenge the status quo in the NUS and engage in a proper fight against fees and other issues.

What a shame that I subesquently discover that they are yet another Trot front group, although I have never seen any UJS/NOLS connection on their site, not that this says much.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You're blatantly a stupid fucktard, KJ. Jewish students don't suffer any palatable racism on University campuses in this country...

Bag of arse.

I've been through the university system three times in the last 2 and a half decades, and experienced it every time.

Not, I hasten to add, from Muslims, who've generally been among the most supportive and friendly of people on campus, but from middle-class whites who didn't like the idea that I was a) Jewish and b) working-class.

The anti-Semitism I experienced was bad enough last time (late 1990s) that I had to actually give two braying Surrey donkeys a lesson in manners to get my message of "zero tolerance" across to them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Obviously we should oppose any racism shown towards Jewish students or any other students for example by supporting antiracist initiatives to campaign against the BNP, including disrupting any attempts they make to organise on campuses or in the communities, to oppose deportations or any discrimnatory treatment of migrants (such as highrer fees or lack of access to courses)

It's a mistake to focus too heavily on a single originating point for tension (the BNP) to the exclusion of addressing other factors though, IMO.
That means tackling racism, Islamophobia, Judaeophobia and any other kind of unjustified hate whatever the source, otherwise you're just pissing into the wind.

But to conflate this with support for Palestine, for the right of return and support the resistance to the Israeli attacks as anti-semitic is disgraceful, part of an attempt by certain bourgeois forces to smear the Palestine solidarity movement. There may of course be chauvinist comments and we should of course condemn and oppose them but it is not the case that supporting the right of Palestinians to have democrtatic rights and the right of return is by some strange twisiting of logic 'racist' or 'antisemitic'.

IIRC the UJS heirarchy tried to pull a few of these kind of smear jobs over visiting speakers at SOAS a couple of years back. IIRC AWL steamed in too.

Respect in my opinion is opportunist by not arguing for a working class socialist politics but in terms of supporting the right of Palestinians, being against the occupation in Iraq (though sometimes some of their members equivocal about what that actually means) and against racism including islamophobia then socialists should be on their side in that argument.

Unfortunately "opportunist" support is more often a curse than a blessing.

 

[Laura Sc]

> You use your idiotically simple-minded ideas on Palestine and Iran specifically to attack the left

You're using the old tactic of "if you say it enough times then it'll stick, even though it's totally untrue". Our ideas on eg Iran are not used to attack the left, they are used to make solidarity. Eg

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/8175

If eg Respect makes itself look stupid by opposing solidarity with workers in Iran, why is that our fault?

> knowing full well that you're banking upon the support of NUJS/Labour to make the rest of us look stupid.

Except that this isn't true either. We oppose NOLS/UJS too. Please can you produce one, just one piece of evidence that we are soft on these groups other than "Your hostility to the Iranian regime makes other left-wingers look bad"? I'll give you one right now on the other side: SWSS etc lining up with UJS to support faith schools at NUS conference 2006 (only one vote against on the executive, but the conference voted it down!)

> You slate Galloway as some divine representative of the Respect student movement randomnly with lies (mentioned above)

Could you explain this please? Yes, we attack Galloway? So what?

> Sofie Buckland was elected to bloc of 12 with more votes than anyone else

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ok, this lie can be measured factually. In fact, Sofie was elected on to the Block of 12 in 9th place (out of 12 - do you see?) not first.

It's also pretty ironic getting this from a sympathiser of Respect who called for a vote for FOSIS in the Block elections and most of whose transfers in the VP Welfare election went to a right-wing candidate while only 30% went to the ENS candidate.

> seeing as the only issue you really seem to disagree with them [Labour Students] seems to be whether or not to have a demonstration over top-up fees.

Erm, and almost everything else.

- NUS democracy (which is crucial)
- Supporting workers fighting the government
- Opposing the privatisation of the NHS
- Means-testing grants
- Tax the rich

The list could go on and on...

Again: lying repeatedly doesn't make something true!

PS Tom: there are lots of people involved in ENS who aren't Trots - your first instinct was right, get involved.

 

[Tom A]

PS Tom: there are lots of people involved in ENS who aren't Trots - your first instinct was right, get involved.

Cheers. For the record I don't have much of a problem with Trots per se, I know a few people in Lancaster's Respect group and they act like nothing like the monsters that they are often depicted to be on message boards across the Net. Additionally on the sufrace I support what ENS stands for, about high time someone had the gall to challenge the status quo in the NUS ffs! It's just a bloody shame that any left/progressive current in student/NUS circles are all too readily subjected to backbiting and sectarianism, which only serves to strengthen the position of the right-wing carrerists who have sadly made the NUS their home.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Again: lying repeatedly doesn't make something true!

The sheer irony of an AWLer saying that has me open-mouthed in admiration of their gall!

 

[Megaton]

They have now adopted the position that anti-zionism is virtually identical to anti-semitism and adopted a so-called no platform as a constitutional amendment.

That's a disgrace.

The NUS would vote itself out of existence if it had the chance. I was at the 2002 conference and it was just as bad. Most of the plonkers there are probably PR consultants now.

 

[Laura Sc]

> The sheer irony of an AWLer saying that has me open-mouthed in admiration of their gall!

Notice how I gave repeated examples of you lying but you have failed to give a single one of us lying in return. Instead you just rely on the force of your exclamations - "sheer irony", "open-mouthed", "gall" - to cover up for the lack of facts.

> They have now adopted the position that anti-zionism is virtually identical to anti-semitism and adopted a so-called no platform as a constitutional amendment.

That would be a disgrace if it were true. But in fact it isn't. NUS has NOT voted that anti-Zionism is the same as anti-semitism, or that criticism of Israel is anti-semitism. It has adopted the European Monitoring Centre definition of anti-semitism, which while its not perfect, doesn't say either of these things.

 

[ViolentPanda]

> The sheer irony of an AWLer saying that has me open-mouthed in admiration of their gall!

Notice how I gave repeated examples of you lying but you have failed to give a single one of us lying in return. Instead you just rely on the force of your exclamations - "sheer irony", "open-mouthed", "gall" - to cover up for the lack of facts.

You've given me repeated examples of my lying, have you?
Actually, my fact-challenged cultist, you haven't done anything of the sort, because this is the first post of mine you've answered. I'd request an apology, but I'd probably just get more guff from you.

Still, it's my own fault for expecting a Sean-worshipper to be any good at engaging with reality.

 

[disownedspirit]

laura
could you provide a link for "European Monitoring Centre definition of anti-semitism"
ive looked on both the eumc site and the NUS but the euro site is a nightnare and the nus site is basically closed until the end of the year

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Laura Sc.

The only individual politician singled out for criticism by the NUS last year was George Galloway not Tony Blair - and AWL were happy to support that. Now GG is not perfect, but he is better than new labour, Libdems and Tories.

My friend was not lying.

He was the president of NUS Wales, an independent (ex-Labour member) in 2001 when the AWL teamed up with New Labour to try and block affiliation to the StWC saying that the NUS should't support any demo's called with the MAB! The AWL were defeated.

The AWL also are islamophobic. They apparently are happy to cosy up to the Zionist Union of Jewish Students, but they pushed through a motion to attack progressive muslim intellectual, Tariq Ramadan being invited to the European Social Forum and ask the ESF to withdraw their invitation.

Strangely, the AWL don't pass motions to get christians, or jews, or people of other religions barred from events!

Also, the AWL have supported a definition of anti-semitism which means that Nelson Mandela and Archbishop Desmond Tutu - leaders of the anti-apartheid struggles - would be no platformed as racists!

What an utter disgrace!

 

[cockneyrebel]

A couple of nice quotes from the AWL:

In Gaza the Palestinians have shown themselves incapable of undertaking even the most basic functions of a state in maintaining order, even allowing for the actions of the Israeli state in creating conditions which made that more difficult.

The Palestinians simply lack the cohesion and internal resources to create their own nation state.

 

[disownedspirit]

A couple of nice quotes from the AWL:

gives us a link then

its not that i dont believe you, but i find it hard to think that a left wing organisation would say something like that

 

[cockneyrebel]

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/7644

 

[cockneyrebel]

Actually to be fair, looking at this further, this was a blog hosted on the AWL site. Bizarre why they'd want to host such a blog, but still, there is a difference.

I read the quotes on another left site, thought they would have seen the difference as well.

Actually I can't work out whether the bloke who writes the blog is an AWL supporter or not??

 

[disownedspirit]

always good to check

but thanks

 

[Tom A]

http://www.workersliberty.org/node/7644

Okay, just read though that article, skimming on a bit about Maxist theory and "non-historic peoples".

This bit I found interesting, following on the part about the Palestinians lacking the cohesion to form their own state:

That is why, like all such peoples in the past, they have looked to any external forces that might lend a hand in achieving their goals, only to find as every such peoples have in the past that these external allies use them for their own purposes before discarding them. And, like such peoples in the past, these external allies are always reactionary forces of one kind or another – Saddam Hussein, now Iran’s clerical-fascists, and US imperialism. The fight for national liberation can be a liberating, progressive struggle, but even in the programme of Lenin and the Comintern it was only such because that struggle was undertaken by revolutionary forces, and in particular was led by the working class dragging a revolutionary peasantry behind it. But no such prospect exists for Palestine. Marxists believe in progressive struggles being undertaken by the working class through its won independent class action, that is the basis of the Comintern’s policy on the National Question. But for the working class to bring about a two states solution in Palestine-Israel it would require the working class in both Israel and Palestine to be effectively at a level of class consciousness where not just a solution to the national question was on the agenda, but a revolutionary overthrow of capitalism. But then the question of two-states would become rather subordinate anyway. Without those conditions the only possibility of a two states solution being established is if it is imposed by imperialism, which is hardly progressive in itself, and would almost certainly be the conditions which would mean that the solution soon fell apart into increased fighting and bloodshed.

So, there is crticism for certian elements of the Palestinian liberation movement, maybe misguided, but still there nonetheless. However it certianly does not say anything that supports the Zionist cause, or saying that Palestinians should be driven into the sea.

This final paragraph sums it up rather well:

The reality is that the Palestinians are not the only people in the world that have been shown to be “non-historic” many such peoples exist without their own state. We should judge each on its merits to determine whether the struggle of any people is progressive or reactionary in the same way that Marx and Engels did e.g. in their support for the struggle of the Poles, rather than simply read off some mantra that socialists must always support the right of self-determination. We have a duty to support all peoples against oppression. Where a people seek to argue for their own self-determination we have a duty to support their right to put forward that case free from intimidation and aggression from other states, but we have no absolute duty to support such a demand ourselves. On the contrary, where the interests of the working class internationally are weakened by such a struggle we should say so, and argue against it, and for workers unity across borders.

Oh and no, I am not a secret member of the AWL, nor am I going to just uncritically agree with what they say, I am just stating that what they seem to be saying is very different to what people on this thread would have you believe they were saying. I have heard similar criticisms about the AWL in the past, and I am trying to find out the truth for myself rather than rely on the egotistical, opinionated agendas of clashing online personalities.

 

[cockneyrebel]

To be fair, as said, those quotes were taken from another left site. It's the first time I've seen them in the wider context.

However I'd still say those sentences are still totally wrong and I can't work out whether the blog writter is an AWL supporter/member or not, I think he is.

 

[fanciful]

The AWL's adoption of the two state solution in Palestine, the one which denies the Palestinians the right to return, has more to do with the NUS than you might think. A friend of mine was a member of Socialist Organiser (the forerunner of the AWL) as it then was, at the NUS conference in the late 1980s (can't remember the year, but I can find out if anyone's really bothered) where Socialist Organiser dropped their position of the democratic secular state and adopted the two state position. Was this the result of any great principled discovery? Not at all, it was because they had struck a deal with the UJS, that if they ditched the rights of the Palestinians, then the UJS would support Socialist Organisers candidate in the NUS general secretary elections.

 

[audiotech]

The 'soggys' are now AWL. I didn't know that. It all make sense now.

 

[Das Uberdog]

Bag of arse.

I've been through the university system three times in the last 2 and a half decades, and experienced it every time.

Not, I hasten to add, from Muslims, who've generally been among the most supportive and friendly of people on campus, but from middle-class whites who didn't like the idea that I was a) Jewish and b) working-class.

The anti-Semitism I experienced was bad enough last time (late 1990s) that I had to actually give two braying Surrey donkeys a lesson in manners to get my message of "zero tolerance" across to them.

Well I suppose I owe some sort of apology - but I must say that if you felt able enough to get your message of zero tolerance over towards these students then I think that the form the racism must have taken must have been in a completely different form to the kind of racist attitudes posed towards Muslims. On the one hand you are supported by the masses of the British population in your religion and position in society, and on the other I doubt it came to much more than name-calling... whereas Muslim students are regularly subject to stop and search by the police, attacks and assualts on the streets, random house raids (the amount of Muslims I know in Avenham who have purportedly had their houses raided under the Terrorism Act is incredible...) and ultimately (now) the exclusion of Islamic groups from campus.

When I say it doesn't exist in a 'palatable' form, I mean it very rarely actually manifests itself in anything other than name-calling - if that! My best friend is Jewish, and he laughed out loud when he heard about that motion at NUS conference. That was before I told him about the definition malarky, too.