National Shop Stewards Network Conference 2009

[dennisr]

I was taking the UUL being unhealthy etc as read. But as I said the stuff over the threateend expulsions and Rog's campaigns should at leadt be used to start a 'network' of more than just SP members. I'm not arguing for some manufactured unity, but the 'willingness' to at least make moves towards others to begin with. There's no point in the SP and UUL pointing at each other saying 'you do it', no 'you do it'. Surely the group who genuinely starts to put those feelers out will gain the kudos rather than be seen as being 'false'. For all my ctiricisms of the SP id' rather they started it than 'allowed' the UUL to start and fuck it up again.

To be frank, The SP has not pointed the finger at anyone. My impression on this thread was some fella was critical of the SP because it does not join in with the UUL 'initiative' - I was just pointing the pointlessnes of being involved. That membership of this grouping is not a replacement for genuine 'unity' and that the SP would be all for the idea of a wider broader left in practice.

Yep. I hope something comes out of the links made through the anti-witchhunt campaign - and yep, the SP will work to build a broader left as it had successfully in the past and without wasting time pointing its finger at what is increasingly an irrelevance. Remember the SP was the driving force in the building of the original UL which bought together diverse left forces and built successfully for years - before everybody got excited about 'unity' with the late arriving SWP? The results of unprincipled 'unity at any cost' we also warned about

 

[Jean-Luc]

You could literally see the daggers from the SP and SWP.

Literally?!! Sounds like a dangerous meeting to be at. Hope nobody was injured. Doesn't surprise me though. They're just two rival vanguards vying with each other to (mis)lead the workers. They've both jumped on the same bandwagon and are struggling with each other to get hold of the reins. Hopefully the genuine workers involved will tell the both of them to get off.

 

[audiotech]

'genuine workers'? Gonna feel their callouses to make sure like?

 

[Urbanblues]

Literally?!! Sounds like a dangerous meeting to be at. Hope nobody was injured. Doesn't surprise me though. They're just two rival vanguards vying with each other to (mis)lead the workers. They've both jumped on the same bandwagon and are struggling with each other to get hold of the reins. Hopefully the genuine workers involved will tell the both of them to get off.

They've jumped on the bandwagon and are trying to get the band leader to play their respective tunes.

 

[Silver_Fox]

and... UUL is NOT a rank and file organisation, at best it is the wish for one - emasculted by the SWP...

and... how would that reality be any different if the SP was part of the UUL? You start by recognising where you are at not where you would wish to be. No short cuts unfortunately (shortcuts to unity have resulted in the SWP taking the piss - with the assistance of their 'useful fools' on the left - desperate for unity at any cost). Yes, at the moment - that leaves the only place to be inside the SP until a wider - genuine - united left can be rebuilt.

Agree with the first sentence. But what I'm saying is that if you're not in the SP then the only other attempt at building a rank and file organisation you can involve yourself with is the UUL, whatever its flaws, and there are many. I agree with all the criticisms you're saying and the UUL has to make fundamental changes if it wants to get anywhere, which I have my doubts about.

But as you say to get involved with the SP stuff in any meaningful stuff you would have to join the SP. And from the SPs point of view, whatever their gains, they still have only 6 members on an NEC of about 60 and don't have activists in the vast majority of branches. Something more than the SP is needed and given what is going on with the attacks on the public services and jobs this has to be something that is done here and now not something that is a medium to long term wish. If we leave it until the medium term then the public services could already have been devastated and the witch hunts ratcheted up.

And you still seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying if you mean I'm the fella saying join in with the UUL initiative. If you think the UUL isn't the way forward then you need something more than just building the SP in UNISON, there has to be another way of building a broader rank and file movement. Forget the left groups, I'm talking about the vast majority of members who aren't in one, who want to fight back. And out of that vast majority of the membership the vast majority of them aren't gonna join the SP any time soon, so something more is needed.

I'm more than happy to look at other ways of building a broader rank and file other than the UUL, which I'm extremely critical of. But as someone who doesn't want to join the SP what else do you suggest I do?

 

[durruti02]

sorry to be boring but can we keep this thread re NSSN and if peeps want a debate on UUL etc .. start another?

 

[dennisr]

party pooper

 

[Urbanblues]

'genuine workers'? Gonna feel their callouses to make sure like?

Genuine workers...as opposed to the professional disputes' chasers; the Swappie who works as a highly paid consultant, answerable, in the main, to himself; no accountability to the collective - other than the Party; and, lots of time to be unaccountable to sister and brother genuine workers.

 

[Urbanblues]

sorry to be boring but can we keep this thread re NSSN and if peeps want a debate on UUL etc .. start another?

Who was invited from the Willis/Mitie cleaners dispute to speak?

 

[durruti02]

party pooper

socialist party pooper!

 

[durruti02]

Who was invited from the Willis/Mitie cleaners dispute to speak?

i have no idea .. as you know i am not directly involved but think its brilliant people are fighting for their rights so i will publicise their actions .. do you know? i think you were going to update us on the other thread what Unite are doing about/for them

tbh though there were no invites for the NSSN .. it was a conference for union activists ..

btw did you enjoy / think the NSSN day was good?

 

[audiotech]

Genuine workers...as opposed to the professional disputes' chasers; the Swappie who works as a highly paid consultant, answerable, in the main, to himself; no accountability to the collective - other than the Party; and, lots of time to be unaccountable to sister and brother genuine workers.

I imagine my union branch is typical. The secretary is not a member of any political party, neither is he a 'highly paid consultant'. He was recently re-elected by a majority, who voted in a secret ballot, posted to all members and despite your mis-leading characterisation, is accountable to that membership, who ultimately decide on any potential dispute.

The other officers of the union may have political affiliations, or may not, but at the end of the day they are also accountable; locally, regionally and nationally.

The above might not match your idea of the 'the collective', but until the miraculous appearance of such an alternative 'accountable body' that's where you will find most 'genuine workers' for now.

 

[Silver_Fox]

Going back to the NSSN the other thing that was slightly strange was that there were hardly any young people there and only a handful of black trade unionists. Given it was in London that was a bit of a surprise.

 

[Urbanblues]

i have no idea .. as you know i am not directly involved but think its brilliant people are fighting for their rights so i will publicise their actions .. do you know? i think you were going to update us on the other thread what Unite are doing about/for them

Yes, I will. However, I'm in awaiting a call from a member of the cleaner’s Branch committee to ascertain the facts; rather than publishing uncorroborated information. You should try it, durrati, instead of just mindlessly posting unconfirmed reports.

tbh though there were no invites for the NSSN .. it was a conference for union activists ..

Yes, just as the L&E Unite's United Left meeting was an event for members of the Unite United Left. Yet, Alberto Durango and Chris Ford, neither of whom has ever tried to contact me either as Broad Left or more recently United Left L&E Coordinator to become part of the regional set up.

Oh, and there were invites to the NSSN.

Durrati, strange that you state that nobody from the Willis/Mitie dispute was invited to speak at the NSSN; and, then qualify this with “...it was a conference for trade union activists...” Are you now claiming that Durango and Ford are not trade union activists; if so, why are you continuing to disseminate lies on the ‘sacked Willis Cleaners demo thursday 5 march’ thread?

Get your game together son; or, stop spreading your cancerous shit.

btw did you enjoy / think the NSSN day was good?

I didn't attend; I was on holiday.

 

[Urbanblues]

Going back to the NSSN the other thing that was slightly strange was that there were hardly any young people there and only a handful of black trade unionists. Given it was in London that was a bit of a surprise.

Why a surprise? Had you visited the London AUG meetings up until they stopped meeting earlier this year you would have seen a room full of people, around 25 or so, predominantly retired, indeed many in their late 70s and 80s, including the Chair; with maybe one black person in the meeting, but more often than not a completely white gathering.

 

[durruti02]

Yes, I will. However, I'm in awaiting a call from a member of the cleaner’s Branch committee to ascertain the facts; rather than publishing uncorroborated information. You should try it, durrati, instead of just mindlessly posting unconfirmed reports.


Yes, just as the L&E Unite's United Left meeting was an event for members of the Unite United Left. Yet, Alberto Durango and Chris Ford, neither of whom has ever tried to contact me either as Broad Left or more recently United Left L&E Coordinator to become part of the regional set up.

Oh, and there were invites to the NSSN.

Durrati, strange that you state that nobody from the Willis/Mitie dispute was invited to speak at the NSSN; and, then qualify this with “...it was a conference for trade union activists...” Are you now claiming that Durango and Ford are not trade union activists; if so, why are you continuing to disseminate lies on the ‘sacked Willis Cleaners demo thursday 5 march’ thread?

Get your game together son; or, stop spreading your cancerous shit.




I didn't attend; I was on holiday.

you are the most petulent childish even nasty poster on urban currently in my book

1) i cnp'ed a report in migrnat cleaner struggles to U75 .. and yet u accuse ME of spreading 'cancerous shit'

2) you twist my words re these cleaners so suggest i am not suggesting they are TU activists .. wtf r u on about! lol

3) u were on holiday? of course!

btw i have reported this post .. accusing people of 'spreading cancerous shit' when they are simply trying to help publicise the plight of migrnat workers is simply disgusting

 

[Urbanblues]

you are the most petulent childish even nasty poster on urban currently in my book

1) i cnp'ed a report in migrnat cleaner struggles to U75 .. and yet u accuse ME of spreading 'cancerous shit'

2) you twist my words re these cleaners so suggest i am not suggesting they are TU activists .. wtf r u on about! lol

3) u were on holiday? of course!

btw i have reported this post .. accusing people of 'spreading cancerous shit' when they are simply trying to help publicise the plight of migrnat workers is simply disgusting

Why don't you research before posting? We all have a responsibility to report accurately. Your posts on the Visteon dispute, and now the Willis/Mitie affair were, and are, nothing short of ill-informed propaganda.

As long as you post your lies I will challenge you; ok?

 

[glenquagmire]

Urbanblues - what can you tell us about the cleaners situation? Is there another thread?

 

[Urbanblues]

Urbanblues - what can you tell us about the cleaners situation? Is there another thread?

I'm currently getting information on the dispute. You know, rather than just being a cipher I'm doing some research. Not simply relying on what the bloke in the pub thinks he heard from his girlfriend's mate who used to go out with a union convenor's brother-in-law's sister's auntie.

 

[glenquagmire]

Can you pass on any info you get? I am genuinely interested in why their seems to be some antipathy towards the dispute within the union - and within the United Left of the union as well. Have only heard the odd thing from Chris Ford.

 

[Urbanblues]

Can you pass on any info you get? I am genuinely interested in why their seems to be some antipathy towards the dispute within the union - and within the United Left of the union as well.

Look at 'sacked Willis Cleaners demo thursday 5 march' in the 'protest/direct action/activism'.

Have only heard the odd thing from Chris Ford.

That's sounds about right.

 

[nightbreed]

Not simply relying on what the bloke in the pub thinks he heard from his girlfriend's mate who used to go out with a union convenor's brother-in-law's sister's auntie.

.......who happens to be on the SWP Central Committee.....

 

[Urbanblues]

.......who happens to be on the SWP Central Committee.....

You know her!

 

[nightbreed]

You know her!

We all know someone like that

 

[durruti02]

Why don't you research before posting? We all have a responsibility to report accurately. Your posts on the Visteon dispute, and now the Willis/Mitie affair were, and are, nothing short of ill-informed propaganda.

As long as you post your lies I will challenge you; ok?

gtf .. you did not CHALLENGE me or respond to me .. you went straight to personal abuse ..

i posted up what appears to be a to everyone a simple worthy issue, of migrant cleaners being taken advantage

and no there is no obligation to FULLY research an issue .. the point of threads is if someone posts something dodgy others correct them

.. IF you or anyone else has issues with that issue they are entitled to respond .. it is the very point of these threads .. yet you did not respond you just went straignt to insult and abuse .. to a fellow trade union activist btw not good

and even though you know all about the Unite side of this dispute it took you 3 1/2 months to respond!!!

and for the record see my response on there .. you know what?? your side of the story sounds pretty kosher ..

.. but what people are they are NOT entitled to do is make disgusting allegations that e.g. i am 'spreading cancerous shite' .. simply out of order

btw did you watch the ReelNews Video of the Visteon Enfield dispute yet? it backs up what i said 100%

 

[mutley]

sw report on the conference

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18348

 

[nightbreed]

sw report on the conference

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=18348

When is the 'Fighting Unions' initiative that the SWP pushed a few years ago going to have a conference?

Or have they decided that the NSSN is the only shop in town?

 

[mutley]

When is the 'Fighting Unions' initiative that the SWP pushed a few years ago going to have a conference?

Or have they decided that the NSSN is the only shop in town?

Offu is dead. Anyone who's been paying attention knows why.

The 'right to work' conference is having another bash in the autumn. One advantage of that over NSSN is anyone can get involved in the RTW grouping, not just stewards and reps. That'll help pull a younger crowd. (not that the 'reps only' model doesn't have advantages. 300 reps clearly has a social weight that 300 odds and sods doesn't)

 

[nightbreed]

The 'right to work' conference is having another bash in the autumn. One advantage of that over NSSN is anyone can get involved in the RTW grouping, not just stewards and reps. That'll help pull a younger crowd. (not that the 'reps only' model doesn't have advantages. 300 reps clearly has a social weight that 300 odds and sods doesn't)

Mutley
Im not convinced.
Offu is dead because the SWP couldnt sustain the initiative.More advance workers shared the NSSN initiative. I fear the RTW thing will go the same way.You are going to have to get out of your sectarian bucket.

Why cant they just eat humble pie and get their best stewards , which are few and far between compared to the SP , involved with the NSSP?

Intersetingly I know they did send members to the NSSN conference including one of their ex stundent reps now in Unite, instead of prioritising the Unite Left meeting in Manchester.

 

[mutley]

Mutley
Im not convinced.
Offu is dead because the SWP couldnt sustain the initiative.More advance workers shared the NSSN initiative. I fear the RTW thing will go the same way.You are going to have to get out of your sectarian bucket.

OFFU was very promising. I remember a 90 strong meeting in Brum when Serwotka came, with about 20 or 30 PCS reps. John rees drowned it in the bath.

Why cant they just eat humble pie and get their best stewards , which are few and far between compared to the SP , involved with the NSSP?

Leaving aside the crack about whose is biggest (ooer missus) the SWP is involved in the NSSN (I assume NSSP is a typo, or I'm not sure wot ur on about)

Intersetingly I know they did send members to the NSSN conference including one of their ex stundent reps now in Unite, instead of prioritising the Unite Left meeting in Manchester.

I'm sure we had people at both - I don't think we should have just not sent any Unite ppl to the NSSN. (If we'd sent every last one to the Unite mtg some clown would accuse us of trying to pack it - damned if you do, damned if you don't). And we had people at the STA meeting in London on the same day. And virtually all our members are in London this weekend for Marxism - that impacts on ppls willingness to travel all the time, esp if they've got families and so on.