Nasrallah calls for democratic removal of government.

[kyser_soze]

How many incidences can you relate of Middle Eastern governments imposing their will upon Western governments ?

OPEC.

I think that Western governments should concern themselves with the West and that Middle Eastern governments should concern themselves with the Middle East.

Then you're a fool for thinking that either would WANT to limit themselves like that - some kind of international parochialism where the Chinese look after Asia, some collection of mullahs take care of the ME etc? International politics doens't work like that.

The opposition are always a minority under democracy, until they outnumber the incumbents.

That's a tautology - opposition to a dictator would be in the minority until it was the majority. The Winter of Discontent was NOT democratic - the majority of the UKs population hadn't voted that they wanted to strike at all, that decision had been taken by the unions. If a majority of Lebanese support Nasrallah well and good, but if it's a minority of that country who are relying on mob tactics to overthrow a government elected in a multi-party system then it's wrong.

But like I said, anyone with sympathy towards a militant, proselytizing theocracy and a nepotistic semi-military dictatorship that's a beacon for corruption and nastiness clearly knows what makes a democracy.

adulterated by Western values

What would they be then? What are these 'western values' that so corrupt Lebanon? And 'western corruption' - what so Arab corruption is perfectly acceptable then?

 

[moono]

OPEC.

Do leave it out. It's their oil and the West are customers. I was thinking more along the lines of Arab dhows disgorging battalions along the Welsh coastline to create a Coptic state. OPEC. You might as well state that Arabs are at the mercy of Irish racehorse trainers. If you don't like the price of their oil, burn some Western oil.

International politics doens't work like that.

More's the pity, and you're the 'fool' for not thinking beyond the crap that exists currently.

The Winter of Discontent was NOT democratic - the majority of the UKs population hadn't voted that they wanted to strike at all

And there's me thinking that it forced an election and the majority agreed with the strikers and ditched the incumbents.

What are these 'western values' that so corrupt Lebanon?

Support for Zionism, that despicable ideology which has torched the Middle East. Support for 'demahcracy' itself, a warped system of 'representation' which Bushists demand to spread. Take a look at the West's attitude to 'demahcracy' in Palestine. Take a look at 'demahcracy' in Iraq. Representative democracy is even struggling in the UK yet you think it's suitable for Lebanon.

 

[rachamim18]

MC5: "MC5 thought that Israel's various incursions had led to instability." Some might have on a temporary basis but that would not have anything to do with what you are implying. Sometimes it pays to stir the pot but ong term instability is not beneficial to anyone, anywhere.

"There would be no destablisation on the northern border if a buffer zone was created. It would also keep Syria busy." Israel already tried this. It had barely finished pulling out of it when this latest war set things back a bit. The only tangible result of said zone was an annual outlay in arms, men, and money that drained Israel for years. It is not worth it unless there is a willing partner who is effective as well. Last time we had the SLA and they were as beneficial as a case of whooping cough.


Epicurus: You are a bit confused, Hezbollah does have some Christian supporters but you could count them on one hand. It has no Christian members because Shia Islam is part and parcel of the groups Charter. The groups is allied politically with the Druse but that is it for cooperation.


Moono: "Middle Eastern govts. should only concern themselves with the Middle East and Western Govts. should only concern themselves with the
West." Right, no alliances, no AID, just pure avarice. What a world vision...

 

[moono]

rachamim, you present as fact that which you wish was reality. You're fooling yourself, nobody else.

Take a holiday. Somewhere where they don't arrest war crims.

 

[Dhimmi]

Personally, I think there ought to be an end to Western-backed governments everywhere except in the West.

Sayeth the westerner wanting to back a particular form of government in the Lebanon...

 

[moono]

Ah, but there's a difference between moral support and paying the wages of assassins.

Police say around 80,000 protestors turned up for the demonstrations, while organisers say the figure is around 800,000.



Demonstrators blocked all roads leading to Siniora's offices, which have been barricaded by armed Lebanese troops in armoured vehicles.



Organisers said the protesters put up tents on main roads leading to the Grand Serail building to force the resignation of Siniora, who was inside his offices with a group of cabinet ministers.

"These are not Hezbollah supporters, they are Lebanese from every sect," Al Jazeera's Rula Amin said.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/F76214B5-D2DB-4275-B4CB-AAEE615FD8FF.htm

Will the American-backed government order the army to shoot ?

Will the army shoot if they do ?

 

[lobster]

Will the American-backed government order the army to shoot ?

Will the army shoot if they do ?

the amount of protesters is too many to start shooting, if they did , hizbollah would just overthrow them.

I doubt very much that the present government are going to be in power for much long

 

[Andy the Don]

I doubt very much that the present government are going to be in power for much long

Then what..??

A pro-Syrian government to stop the investigation into the recent assassination of anti-hezbollah/Syrian politicians. That would lead to civil war.

If the west was orchestrating these assassinations & demonstrations most of you would be up in arms about it, but you seem to have this view that because they are pro Syrian & Hezbollah that it will lead to a new middle eastern utopia. It will not it will lead to civil war & another Iranian style theocracy. Don't think Israel will just sit back & watch as a pro Iranian/Syrian client state flourishes on its Northern boarder. This will be the excuse Israel needs to invade & create a sterile security zone to the Litani river.

 

[kakuma]

re: an end to western backed governments, it's not that simple.
it is an interesting question tho.

imo it's a crime for us not to intervene if a country is carrying out genocide on. but at what point do we leave it. and are we being hypocrites by 'policing' other countries while there is so much violence conducted by our governments at home and abroad

should the american army leave south korea? it would probably have another civil war within 10 years

bit off on a tangent sorry. saturday morning...

 

[moono]

AtD;

Then what..??

A pro-Syrian government to stop the investigation into the recent assassination of anti-hezbollah/Syrian politicians.

Following the assassination of Hariri the American Zionists forced the UN to demand the withdrawal from Lebanon of Syrian troops. Syria left without a great deal of fuss, looking for similar resolution compliances from Israel which never came nor were ever demanded by the UN. Not long after they'd gone the Israelis again invaded Lebanon.

Slant it how you like but they are the basic truths.

Standing back and looking at that it's clear that the assassination of Hariri benefited Syria not at all yet the American accusations have stuck. If not for Hizballah, Lebanon would be overrun and Iran exposed and that's why they believe that the current Lebanese government should be turfed out. It's aiding and giving comfort to the enemy.

 

[Luther Blissett]

Christains, of which there several groups, come under the sway of the largest Chritain group, the Maronites. Maronites are under the Gemayel clan and their stance is the direct opposite of the Shia.

US on Lebanon:

"We would like to reiterate our alarm at indications that Syria is working with Hezbollah and other Lebanese allies to destabilize the democratically elected Government of Lebanon," Siegel said.

Really Mr.Siegel, Hizballah really are capable of being politically divisive halfwits all by themselves.

The US 'diplomat' talks as though Israel's bombing of Lebanon 'back to 1982' had nothing to do with the current destabilisation of Lebanon.

How come these US Diplomats never mention the destabilising efforts of Lebanese Americans such as Sharon Nader Sloan and Brigitte Gabriel and the viciously anti-Islamic American Congress For Truth ?

As Maronites - Lebanese Americans, Brigitte Gabriel and Sharon Nader Sloan, support Kataeb Party (i.e. Phalangist Party) which it's founder, Pierre Gemayel, the grandfather of the recently assassinated Pierre Gemayel, modeled on European fascist movements after his visit to Berlin Olympics in 1930s.

Interesting perspectives here from Sunni, Christian and Shi'ia Lebanese: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/talking_point/6170498.stm

Here's what far-right Maronie (Phalangist) Brigitte Gabriel is telling the Americans.
http:// multimedia.heritage.org/content/wm/Lehrman-092706a.wvx which can be viewed in parts on
How much of what she says is 'truth'?

 

[nino_savatte]

MC5: Why would Israel ever want destabilisation on its northern border. Its objectives for the last 40 odd years have been the opposite of this. Civil disobediance by the way has never been used effectively in this region and one should not bet their last dollar that it will suddenly gain currency either. Also, you read my post wrong. Israel does not prop up the "govt." in Lebanon.

Israel has meddled in the affairs of Lebanon for decades now. So, too, has the US. Israel supported the Phalangist government of Amine "call me moderate" Gemayel and supported the Phalangists when they massacred thousands of Palestinians. Israel has also conducted numerous incursions into Lebanon, which also help to destablise the country.

Lebanon is a little like Israel in many respects; it was created as a state where the ruling class comes from a single ethno-religious group.

 

[lobster]

Then what..??

A pro-Syrian government to stop the investigation into the recent assassination of anti-hezbollah/Syrian politicians. That would lead to civil war.

i am not so sure, as hezbollah have quite a lot of support in Lebanon, how much i don;t know, but possibly enough to make the country stable.
I am aware of the vast opposition to hezbollah present , i just feel it may not be enough to prevent hezbollah becomming the goverment.
If not, then i agree with you, a civil war is eminent.

If the west was orchestrating these assassinations & demonstrations most of you would be up in arms about it, but you seem to have this view that because they are pro Syrian & Hezbollah that it will lead to a new middle eastern utopia. It will not it will lead to civil war & another Iranian style theocracy. Don't think Israel will just sit back & watch as a pro Iranian/Syrian client state flourishes on its Northern boarder. This will be the excuse Israel needs to invade & create a sterile security zone to the Litani river.

Ive never said such a thing, perhaps titles of these threads sound pro Syrian & Hezbollah but i for one do not support them nor the western influence.
I believe the middleast needs to have goverments that are secular, otherwise there is always going to be conflicts,wars and nothing will ever be stable.

Of course israel will not look away, nor will they rush into a war that failed against hezbollah. when or if hezbollah become the goverment i cannot see the neutral troops on the border staying there very long.

 

[moono]

The border itself requires definition;

The United Nations has started work on mapping the Shaba Farms area on the northern border, using available maps and satellite photographs. The disputed territory, or parts of it, is claimed by Syria, Lebanon and Israel.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/794720.html

..but who is going to accept UN authority ?

 

[lostexpectation]

doesn't seem like anythingis going to happen, I did notice all the red and white flags, and the lack of yellow, in the crowds, the hexbellah organisers have made sure everyone has the flag with the cedar on it abd bbc showed them taking yellow hexbollah flags away from people in the crowd very clever.

 

[moono]

Yes, Nasrallah stated from the beginning that he wanted everybody to display the Lebanese flag, nothing which could be viewed as factional.

You think was , er.....sneaky ?

 

[grogwilton]

Epicurus: You are a bit confused, Hezbollah does have some Christian supporters but you could count them on one hand. It has no Christian members because Shia Islam is part and parcel of the groups Charter. The groups is allied politically with the Druse but that is it for cooperation.

Have you read in the Path of Hezbollah? Hezbollah has significant membership among sunni and secular communities and also membership within christian communities. more importantly, it has huge and majority SUPPORT among all communities including druse and christian. hezbollah has departed from its sharia sectarian ideology of the early 80's and is moving in an increasingly nationalist direction.

 

[moono]

The government also came under fire over its relationship with Washington and its conduct during the summer's 34-day-war between Israel and Hizbullah.

"Our people were being killed everyday by Israel and they [the government] were taking orders from its ally, America. No one from this government has even visited the south yet," says Khaled Khadash, a 47-year-old marketing manager.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/story/0,,1962136,00.html

Tch, tch.

Fouad Siniora, the Lebanese prime minister, has appealed for dialogue as supporters of the Hezbollah-led opposition marched though central Beirut to demand the resignation of the government.

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/5A8AD25D-5ADD-48C0-A380-23715EC96612.htm


"They have the right to protest... but in Lebanon the change of government has to go through constitutional measures."

Calling an election would appear to be worth discussing.

 

[moono]

International concern has been growing. On Saturday, the UK Foreign Secretary Margaret Beckett and German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier were in the Lebanese capital to express their support for Mr Siniora and his government.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6203546.stm

What a shame that nearly all of Blair's socialists either resigned from his government or died.

I must say that it would be nice to have the power to arrest Blair, instead of the other way around.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: Curious, why do you keep using the meaningless phrase, "American Zionists?"

"The UN has started to work on the Sheba'a Farms area." They have been doing so since 1966. The UN, after receiving the only map showing at Lebanese territory [hatily dran in crayon by Jumblatt, et al], laugingly gave it back to Walid Jumblatt and told him to get real. There is no claim. It is Syrian throughand through and as such is tied to Golan.


Nino: As I siad clearly, sometimes it helps to stir the pot a bit but long term instability does noone any service at all.


"Lebanon is like a little Israel." Not at all. The Zionists agitated long and hard to realise their nearly 2,000 year old ambition. The Maronites on the other hand agitated for like 75 years for a tradition that has no historical reference.

Luther: "How much of what that Maronite woman is saying is truth." The truth of the matter is that Lebanon was carved out of Syrian territory to appease French speaking Christian buinssmen allied heavily with Paris. However, being pragmatic n a changing world. they had to include for the reality of long term Suna and Shia settlements, not to mention Druse who had been in the Shouf even longer than tha Maronite. So the French made a homeland for all 4 groups where there would bew an unstated power sharing agreement. Sounds good on paper but never held in reality.

The only true solution muight be to dissolve their federal system and adopt a system of canons representing the 4 major groups, with a sort of international middelground such as was proposed for Jerusalem originally.


GrogWilton: No, in truth I have neverr even heard f that book. I do live in Israel though and just finished my 3rd tourd battlinh Hezballah so I do tend to trust my own judgements in that paticular area. Offer me some demographics and popular leaders of other sectarian groups speaking on this and I will consider it.

Have you ever had a chace to post on billingual boards like Cedears? I really think you have been fed some lines but if you have references , again, I would love to see them. I have to this day never met a single Christain affiliated with thgroups political OR military wing. I have met Sunna in the military wing but very, very few.

I have alrady mentioned the TACTICAL alliance between Lebanese Druse and Hezbollah but it is not an ideologicalk alliance by any means.

 

[grogwilton]

"The answers to the first question showed a relatively high level of support for Hizbullah's capture of two Israeli soldiers, contrasting the positions of some local political forces' condemnation of the operation. Such support was based on a belief that Israel and the US intended to implement UN Security Council Resolution 1559 by force, regardless of whether Hizbullah carried out the July 12 raid."

http://www.beirutcenter.info/default.asp?contentid=692&MenuID=46



from Hala Jaber who has researched extensively into the subject and is author of 'Hezbollah, born with a vengeance':

'There is not a single politician Lebanon currently from the extreme christian camp to the muslims and druze, who does not defend the activities of the groups fighters.' pg 74

 

[rachamim18]

Grogwilton: Well, thisa just proves the ld adage that one must bnever believe everythin that one reads. Just this afternoon in predominatly Muslim West Beirut, Shia [the stalwarts of Hezbollah and its predecessor and current allly AMAL] had at least two major street battles AGAINST SUNNA, brother Muslims. Guns came out at one and a supporter of Hezbollah got his brains blown out. So much for your envisoned hegemony. In the other one, just various stabbings and burned out buildingds to go with the others. The first riots took lace inTariq J'dideh and of course bgan with one of the pro Nasrallah, let's oust Siniora street dem with the natural slung rocks that always accompany any street action by Hezbollah. Not more than 20 miutes later the secind dem became violent as wellas Nasrallah's boys began stabbing xchanting Sunna. Suripisingly, the impotent Lebanese Army finally took a stand and gassed the crowd to break it up. Good for them. Now, if they can get tier britches up in Beka'a and along the south, maybe Israel can stop crossing their border. L-Rd knows I am sick of seeing Lebanon as all hell.

So much for your united Lebanon behind Hezbollah. Christains supporting it? I take it you have not even bothered to go the billinguale Maron9ite baords I hipped you to...If not, dig for the latest and you will see that if the factionalism is so entrenched to prevent Shia and sunna from temporarily uniting so as to establish an Islamic State, your idea has no cache.

 

[rachamim18]

One more thing, General Assembly Resolutioins are never implemented, just released to the press corp.

 

[nino_savatte]

"Lebanon is like a little Israel." Not at all. The Zionists agitated long and hard to realise their nearly 2,000 year old ambition. The Maronites on the other hand agitated for like 75 years for a tradition that has no historical reference.

Wrong, it was created as an ethnic enclave by a European power. It has just as much an "historical reference" as those who settled/colonised Palestine and created Israel

 

[moono]

One more thing, General Assembly Resolutioins are never implemented, just released to the press corp.

Lol. They are 'implemented' by hundreds of millions throughout the world.

Go ask O.J.

 

[moono]

'We appeal to all Lebanese, from every region and political movement... to rid us of an incapable government'

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah
Hezbollah leader

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6203546.stm

...the demonstrations have had the good nature of a pop concert or festival,........says the BBC's Jon Leyne in Beirut.

The US has denounced "threats of intimidation violence" in Lebanon

The mounting crisis threatening the Siniora government in Lebanon, and the specter of a Hezbollah takeover, have spurred senior Israeli government officials in Jerusalem to raise several proposals in recent days aimed at strengthening Siniora,

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/795768.html

Oh aye.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: It is not clear whether or not you are talking about Israel or Lebanon. In one case, Lebanon, you are indeed correct. It was created by the Syrians dring their Mandate era. You are wrong one very important fact though, it was not carved out for Europeans, but for Maronite Catholics who asa people willing to speak French and sharing an almost identical faith were seen as a bridgehead into the region. With the French doing most of their hard buisiness via Maronite fixers or associates it did make sense to preserve thier little corner of the world, the Shouf aas a sort of Maronite duchy. Lebanon itself came as an after though after much agitation.


As for historical reference, quick Nino, go to your Wikipedia and tell us how long Maronites have existed at all. Then take that number and subtract it from the total number of years Jews have existed in the lands now alternatively called "Palestine"/Israel....You will find of course that it is not even worth talking about.


If you are going to try that tired nonsense about the Mareonites being the inheritors of the "Sea Peoples," National Geographic's little DNA analyses have put it to rest.

The Maronites are just another group of latecomers to the region. Undoubtedly they absorbed earler groups and cultures but that does not in any way trump the Jews claim to a consistent and successive culture going back 4,500 years.


Moono: You need a lesson in what UN Resolutions, both GA and SC, represent and enable the holder to do. Please do us both a favor and see what I mean. Secondly, millions do not ratify anything. Ambassadors SUPPOSEDLY representing those millions interests [and never, ever doing so] are theones doing the ratification. That is apples and oranges.


Your quoting of the all insightful BBC is a joke. Pop concert it is? If you considered Altamont with the Hells Angels as an amicable pop concert so be it. Me? I tend towards Wyndham Hill in the evening breezes. I am sure that poor lad who was shot in the back did not find it too fun of an outing.

Hezbollah inspired takeover? Tell me Moono, would you like the url of some good Lebanese boards I post on? Some even allow English speakers. You might be amazed as to what non-Shia, and even some Shia seem to think onthis issue. As usual, you do not seem at all to have a clue.

 

[moono]

I'm already talking with Lebanese 'christians', rachamim, Lebanese 'christians' that have come crawling out of the woodwork looking for support, begging for American armed intervention before their past crimes are exposed by revolution.
These Zionist back-rubbers , collaborators with Sharon and Olmert, have a shock coming.

 

[rachamim18]

Moono: As sdomeone who has recently been to Lebanon and continues to communicate with LEbanese, as well as post on Lebanese boards, might I pry and ask how you are talking to Lebanese and in what medium? Forgive me for dounbting you but much of what you say just does not make sense... You are aware of course of the sectarian figtinh springing up all over Lebanon are you not? Where asre your Christain supporters of Nasrallah then?

 

[moono]

Where asre your Christain supporters of Nasrallah then?

Not spouting the racist garbage of Avigdor Lieberman , that's for sure. Lol.