Myths of Lebanon War 2006

[Bernie Gunther]

The term "civilian" is ambiguous with regard to Israel, a country permantly at war and with universal conscription. If I were Israeli, I'd rather my children were fighting guerillas than conventional armies. And a conventional war against Israel would likely involve far more non-combatant casualties than a guerilla war.

I think that certainly, if you're a member of the elite, safe behind multi-layered security, then fighting terrorists is certainly a more attractive option than if you aren't so protected.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yep.

For fucks' sake.

 

[TAE]

Oh dear, he's been banned already.

Myth: The Hizbollah action was in support of Hamas and the Palestinians

Reality: The timing of the attack, a few days before the opening of the G8 summit, shows is the real reason for the kidnapping. It has nothing to do with Palestine.

The kidnapping occured on July 12.

The G8 summit was held July 15-17.

The following was published on June 29: Iran Tops Agenda at G8 Ministers' Meeting in Moscow

This was not an isolated article. The kidnapping was a diversionary tactic.

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Myth: This is a disproportionate response to kidnapping of 2 soldiers

Reality: The kidnapping was the straw that broke the camel's back. Since withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000, there have been many incidents on the border, the vast majority of them initiated by Hizbollah, which refused to accept UN's word that Israel had withdrawn fully.

Moreover, Hizbollah was armed to the teeth with 13,000 rockets, all aimed at northern Israel, and recently was getting longer range rockets as well. This was perceived as a very significant threat by Israel, and there were considerable worries that Hizbollah-Iran would launch a 1st strike.

This current conflict has been inevitable for many years - it was a matter of time until it happened.

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I find these two statements put together rather interesting. Why did Israel choose to attack now ? Couldn't have anything to do with some people wanting to make it easier to take action against Iran, could it?

Myth: Israel is preparing for a massive ground attack

Reality: Israel has called up 5000 or so reservists. In a general call up, Israel will call up maybe 1 million reservists. Whatever they are planning to do, calling 5000 reservists is NOT an indication of a massive ground invasion.

So ... why tell the civilian population to leave? Which (by the way) is pretty close to ethnic cleansing. And BBC TV did report this evening that in previous days, fleeing civilians had been attacked by the IDF.

Myth: Hizbollah defeated Israel in Southern Lebanon

Whatever.

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Myth: Israeli troops like killing children / deliberately aim for children

Reality: Israel is a far more child-friendly country than England. To suggest they like killing children or do so deliberately is extremely wrong and actually is an effective propoganda weapon.

Israelis may love their own children, but when it comes to non-israeli children, I think many IDF members really do not care. To put all those deaths down to tragic accidents is becoming less and less believable, especially since the two cases involving british citizens where the difference between the 'official versions' and 'what actually happend' were clearly exposed.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Oh dear, he's been banned already.

Given that Fridgemagnet has confirmed that it's the same sad twat who returns over and over again, would you be surprised to know that in one of his incarnations he admitted/claimed that he's not actually Jewish but posts from the POV of (what he assumes to be) one for maximum troll potential?

He also threatened to kneecap a poster and "do over" another. Don't you just love cyber-hardmen?

 

[TAE]

On the internet, nothing would surprise me.

 

[moono]

Don't you just love cyber-hardmen?

He got away before I split his infinitives. Too bad.

 

[Fong]

I find these two statements put together rather interesting. Why did Israel choose to attack now ? Couldn't have anything to do with some people wanting to make it easier to take action against Iran, could it?

So you don't think its got anything to do with the fact that Hezbollah skipped across the border, murdered 8 people in cold blood and kidnapped two more then? Was that just co-incidence?

So ... why tell the civilian population to leave? Which (by the way) is pretty close to ethnic cleansing. And BBC TV did report this evening that in previous days, fleeing civilians had been attacked by the IDF.

Some would argue they are not perfect, some would argue whats the difference between a member of Hezbollah and a civilian and how do you know? One would hope that asking the civilian population to leave means lowering the number of targets down to just Hezbollah and people willing to fight and trying to minimise casualties which don't play well for them in the press.

Israelis may love their own children, but when it comes to non-israeli children, I think many IDF members really do not care. To put all those deaths down to tragic accidents is becoming less and less believable, especially since the two cases involving british citizens where the difference between the 'official versions' and 'what actually happend' were clearly exposed.

This is probably quite true, after cleaning up enough body parts of your friends and family from the road side due to suicide bombers, watching your friends in the army being taken and murdered by fanatics and watching missiles fly into your country killing women and children, I suspect you do become a little hardened to violence and do care a little less about your enemy.

One of the things when you dealing with a despicible enemy that will cut you up and drag your dead through the streets then bomb your children is that they tend to do a lot of damage on the psychological level.

Every complains, Israel kills civilians!! Israel kills women and children!

So does their enemy.

Why is it that everyone seems to forget that?

 

[moono]

The Zionists instigate the slaughter of civilians, on a criminal and massive scale, Hizb Allah respond and kill Israeli civilians, on a comparatively small scale, and you want to focus on the Israeli dead. Why is that ?

 

[Fong]

The Zionists instigate the slaughter of civilians, on a criminal and massive scale, Hizb Allah respond and kill Israeli civilians, on a comparatively small scale, and you want to focus on the Israeli dead. Why is that ?

I don't wish to focus on either, as its all a little disturbing, just wondering why people keep complaining that Israel kills civilians and women and children, when so do their enemy.

Hizbollah didn't 'respond' to anything, they were not even part of the picture, then decided to skip across the border kill 8 people and kidnap 2 more. How is that responding to anything, or are they allowed to murder people in response to their 'brothers' in another country being oppressed? Oh thats ok, they can fire rockets that kill women and children too, Israel can't because that is 'targetting' civilians, the fact that Hezbollah target civilians? Well lets not get bogged down in specifics now, not when we can make excuses for them.

You accuse me of 'focusing' on one sides dead, when I am doing nothing of the sort, I am just pointing out that this thread seems to be focusing on one sides dead while ignoring the fact that the other side is JUST as guilty of EXACTLY the same offences.

 

[TAE]

You are mixing a whole load of stuff there.

For starters, the Hizbollah attack was against soldiers on active duty, the IDF response was to bomb several civilian targets. After that, Hizbollah attacked Haifa etc.

So you don't think its got anything to do with the fact that Hezbollah skipped across the border, murdered 8 people in cold blood and kidnapped two more then? Was that just co-incidence?

Hezbollah should not have done that, but I think that this attack is being used as an excuse.

Some would argue they are not perfect, some would argue whats the difference between a member of Hezbollah and a civilian and how do you know? One would hope that asking the civilian population to leave means lowering the number of targets down to just Hezbollah and people willing to fight and trying to minimise casualties which don't play well for them in the press.

That makes no sense. Hezbollah could simply leave with everyone else, and the only ones left behind would be a few poor civilians who could not get out.

This is probably quite true, after cleaning up enough body parts of your friends and family from the road side due to suicide bombers, watching your friends in the army being taken and murdered by fanatics and watching missiles fly into your country killing women and children, I suspect you do become a little hardened to violence and do care a little less about your enemy.

How many members of the IDF have actually seen that in real life? For those that have, it still does not excuse killing civilians. Besides, imagine what the lebanese are feeling now.

Every complains, Israel kills civilians!! Israel kills women and children!

So does their enemy.

Why is it that everyone seems to forget that?

 

[ZAMB]

The Zionists instigate the slaughter of civilians, on a criminal and massive scale, Hizb Allah respond and kill Israeli civilians, on a comparatively small scale, and you want to focus on the Israeli dead. Why is that ?

Could it be because the Israelis are US allies and thus their lives are inherently more valuable?

It makes me sick to hear people droning on and on about the poor Israelis - what about the poor Palestinians - who owned the land in the first place, and are now trapped in the sealed trap that is Gaza, to be butchered as the Israelis please.

I'm starting to think that they went so heavily into Lebanon to keep the news media away from what they're doing in Gaza. That's another reason why they didn't exchange prisoners [besides helping the US frame Iran]. It's getting harder ands harder to get real news out of Gaza about what's happening.

 

[Fong]

Hezbollah should not have done that, but I think that this attack is being used as an excuse.

Pretty convienent excuse wasn't it.

That makes no sense. Hezbollah could simply leave with everyone else, and the only ones left behind would be a few poor civilians who could not get out.

But Hezbollah doesn't want to leave, that would mean leaving all their missiles, all their bases, all their weapons stores and their country behind, I think the idea is that they will stay and fight.

How many members of the IDF have actually seen that in real life? For those that have, it still does not excuse killing civilians. Besides, imagine what the lebanese are feeling now.

I didn't say it wasn't a vicious circle. You could as easily argue that the palestinians are only as bad as they are because of Israeli atrocities.

Just pointing out, one side isn't better then the other.

Nothing confusing about it.

Both sides are cunts, both sides are killing civilians, both sides are killing women and children.

So why is Israel the butt of almost every attack on this forum, while Hezbollah get excuses made for them?

A level of degrees? So if Hezbollah killed 5 times more, then they would take equal scorn, if Israel killed half as many as they did, that would be ok?

This makes no sense. Killing Civilians is wrong, on any scale. Killing non-combatants is wrong, on any scale, and killing women and children is wrong, on any scale.

You can't just decide that Israel are the bad guys cause they killed more, but the other side, well they were just responding...they killed civilians they killed women and children, they are just as bad.

 

[TAE]

I do not support Hamas and I do not support Hezbollah.

However, unlike the governments of the US and the UK, I also do not support Israel.

 

[TAE]

But Hezbollah doesn't want to leave, that would mean leaving all their missiles, all their bases, all their weapons stores and their country behind, I think the idea is that they will stay and fight.

Perhaps. But I find it unlikely. They could take many of their weapons with them. Once the dust settles, they could return.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

It isn't obvious why they'd need to go anywhere, just lose the RPG someplace and go home.

That way you are indistinguishable from the rest of the people.

 

[Fong]

I do not support Hamas and I do not support Hezbollah.

However, unlike the governments of the US and the UK, I also do not support Israel.

Well those groups aren't making their own missiles, bombs and small arms, so someone is supporting them.

 

[nick1181]

So why is Israel the butt of almost every attack on this forum, while Hezbollah get excuses made for them?

Because Israel have all the power. They've turned Gaza into an open prison and have been systematically brutalizing the Palestinians for decades.

The casualty figures are generally about 10 to 1 in favour of Israel, but the press always focuses on Israel being the victim.

I think people are just sick of all the lies.

 

[TAE]

Well those groups aren't making their own missiles, bombs and small arms, so someone is supporting them.

Not in my name.

 

[Fong]

Because Israel have all the power. They've turned Gaza into an open prison and have been systematically brutalizing the Palestinians for decades.

The casualty figures are generally about 10 to 1 in favour of Israel, but the press always focuses on Israel being the victim.

I think people are just sick of all the lies.

I find that completely untrue tho, the idea that the 'press' always focuses on Israel being the victim.

In fact, I would say that in my life time, Hamas and other groups have become very adept at using the media to portray themselves as victims.

Also while I agree that Israel aren't very good, and I would certainly like to see a massive change in the way they behave, Palestinians themselves (since we talking generalisations here) haven't exactly been innocent in this debacle.

TAE.

Yeah I can understand that, but then, I understand that without that support, we would be looking at a casualty list for Israelis that would make us sick.

Maybe I am just not willing to let it go that way.

I don't think the enemy in this case would be willing to let Israel slink back into its own borders, they would not be happy until it was flat out genocide and the Israel nation was nothing but a burning mess and any Jewish members left were dead.

I am not willing to see that happen, so I can't complain about the support we give Israel.

 

[ZAMB]

Another myth of the Lebanon war - put forward by Bush and the Israelis - is that they are JUST defending themselves. The writer of this article does not agree.

The Politics of Proportionality

By Remi Kanazi

07/19/06 "Information Clearing House" -- -- For many Americans, the recent assault on Gaza and Lebanon makes perfect sense. Two attacks on Israeli soldiers by groups in Gaza and Lebanon, and the subsequent capture of three Israeli prisoners, were “unspeakable provocations,” but a sordid feeling overcomes all those who have been closely watching the events unfold in the Occupied Territories and Lebanon. The Israeli government, reinforced by American steadfastness and the international community’s capitulation, set the rules for the one-sided catastrophe. Israel can freely pound Gaza, batter south Lebanon, and hammer Beirut, but if Hezbollah, Hamas, Fatah or any other Palestinian or Lebanese civilian lifts a finger to defend themselves or their country against Israeli military aggression, it is tantamount to crimes against humanity.

The “reaction” against Hezbollah and Hamas has involved an intense bombing campaign—targeting civilian infrastructure and the innocent population. In the past six days, more than 230 Lebanese have perished at the hands of Israeli forces, nearly all of whom were civilians. The scene in Gaza is equally bleak. Since the start of the month, the Israeli Occupation Force (IOF) killed nearly 100 Palestinians. The damage in Lebanon is already estimated to be in the billions—a staggering sum for a nation with a 2005 Gross Domestic Product of 20 billion dollars. The economic blockade imposed on the Occupied Territories has driven up the rates of poverty, malnutrition, and unemployment.

Israel used the capturing of the three Israeli prisoners as a pretext to wage a larger war on the inhabitants of the Occupied Territories and Lebanon. Still bitter about Hezbollah forcefully driving the Israeli military out of south Lebanon in 2000 and emboldened by Hamas’ election sweep in January, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert reaffirmed that Israelis “will not be held hostage to terror.” But Israelis, as Olmert maintains, “will fight with all the strength we are capable of,” which includes the use of terrorism against civilian populations. At no point is it appropriate for a United Nation’s member state, a signatory to the Geneva Conventions, and a self-proclaimed “moral democracy” to act in this manner.

Suppose Israel didn’t occupy the Shebaa Farms and it didn’t frequently incite and intimidate the Lebanese population with military operations, sonic booms, border attacks, and the abduction of Lebanese civilians: Israel’s recent attacks would still constitute war crimes. Under no circumstance is a nation allowed to attack another sovereign nation’s civilian population with the use of physical force, economic strangulation and collective punishment due to a “provocation” caused by a non-government entity—particularly when the aggressor state is accusing other nations of orchestrating the attacks. While 23 members of Hezbollah are representatives in the Lebanese parliament, Hezbollah is not the Lebanese government, nor does Israel claim it to be. Furthermore, many critics are condemning Israel for its “disproportionate use of force.” While many of these critics astutely recognize the brutality inherent in Israel’s offensive, it is necessary to note that proportionality does not apply to the endangering of civilian life and the collective punishment of the civilian population; civilians must never be targeted.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14060.htm

 

[TAE]

Yeah I can understand that, but then, I understand that without that support, we would be looking at a casualty list for Israelis that would make us sick.

Maybe I am just not willing to let it go that way.

I don't think the enemy in this case would be willing to let Israel slink back into its own borders, they would not be happy until it was flat out genocide and the Israel nation was nothing but a burning mess and any Jewish members left were dead.

I am not willing to see that happen, so I can't complain about the support we give Israel.

I don't think the choice is a simple (a) let the israelis do whatever they want or (b) let the israelis get slaughtered.

 

[Fong]

Another myth of the Lebanon war - put forward by Bush and the Israelis - is that they are JUST defending themselves. The writer of this article does not agree.

Shame the article failed to mention that Lebanon was supposed, in 1990 according to the Taif accord and in 2004 according to the UN, to disband and disarm Hezbollah and other militia groups, and to take control of South Lebanon to protect the borders of Israel and to stop attacks against them.

Yet, they never did.

 

[Fong]

I don't think the choice is a simple (a) let the israelis do whatever they want or (b) let the israelis get slaughtered.

Sadly I think it is.

Any attempt to say you will remove funding, stop backing, is going to be laughed at. It is clearly a bluff. You can't do a good bluff with something you just aren't ever going to do.

You can't remove funding from Israel or backing, because the moment you do, we will see one of two things. Genocide on a scale that makes Germany's attempts look half hearted, or a nuclear attack.

You will either see Israel overrun by the countries and groups surrounding it that want nothing more then to destroy it, or Israel will take the last resort and openly use nuclear weapons to protect themselves.

Now, honestly, is that a bluff you can take, is that an issue you can force?

It just isn't.

Right now, 330 civilians dead.

If backing was removed, millions of civilians dead, on which side would depend, but the death toll would be horrendous.

 

[moono]

fong;

I don't wish to focus on either, as its all a little disturbing, just wondering why people keep complaining that Israel kills civilians and women and children, when so do their enemy.

Hizbollah didn't 'respond' to anything, they were not even part of the picture, then decided to skip across the border kill 8 people and kidnap 2 more. How is that responding to anything, or are they allowed to murder people in response to their 'brothers' in another country being oppressed? Oh thats ok, they can fire rockets that kill women and children too, Israel can't because that is 'targetting' civilians, the fact that Hezbollah target civilians? Well lets not get bogged down in specifics now, not when we can make excuses for them.

You accuse me of 'focusing' on one sides dead, when I am doing nothing of the sort, I am just pointing out that this thread seems to be focusing on one sides dead while ignoring the fact that the other side is JUST as guilty of EXACTLY the same offences.

Yes, Hizb Allah DID respond. They fired rockets into Israel after the Zionists began slaughtering Lebanese civilians. Don't you read the goddam news ?
Hizb Allah attacked Zionist soldiers, not civilians, and there is a great deal of difference.

And you emphasise 'JUST as guilty' when the Zionists have murdered hundreds. Murdering 40 is NOT 'just as guilty' as murdering 400. It's 360 less guilty.

 

[nick1181]

I find that completely untrue tho, the idea that the 'press' always focuses on Israel being the victim.

I'd say it's pretty self-evident.

Two days before the first Hamas kidnapping, Israel kidnapped two Palestinians. This wasn't reported. The kidnap of the Israelli soldier made headlines everywhere.

The only reason why we hear about these things at all - and the only reason our media are beginning to vere towards the truth, is that the internet is making all the lies untenable.

In fact, I would say that in my life time, Hamas and other groups have become very adept at using the media to portray themselves as victims.

The reason the PA govt is dominated by Hamas is because the Palestinians ARE the victims. No portrayal necessary.

Also while I agree that Israel aren't very good, and I would certainly like to see a massive change in the way they behave, Palestinians themselves (since we talking generalisations here) haven't exactly been innocent in this debacle.

The kill ratio is still about ten to one, so you're probably going to see people coming out in favour of the underdogs.

This tendency is going to increase by the way. Israel is painting itself into a similar sort of corner that white South Africa did in the 70s/80s. People don't really have much stomach for this sort of unbalanced agression.

 

[Fong]

And you emphasise 'JUST as guilty' when the Zionists have murdered hundreds. Murdering 40 is NOT 'just as guilty' as murdering 400. It's 360 less guilty.

They responded by pre-emptively murdering 8 people and kidnapping 2.

360 less guilty.

I don't even know how to respond to that kind of crazy.

 

[Fong]

I'd say it's pretty self-evident.

Two days before the first Hamas kidnapping, Israel kidnapped two Palestinians. This wasn't reported. The kidnap of the Israelli soldier made headlines everywhere.

The only reason why we hear about these things at all - and the only reason our media are beginning to vere towards the truth, is that the internet is making all the lies untenable.

The reason the PA govt is dominated by Hamas is because the Palestinians ARE the victims. No portrayal necessary.

The kill ratio is still about ten to one, so you're probably going to see people coming out in favour of the underdogs.

This tendency is going to increase by the way. Israel is painting itself into a similar sort of corner that white South Africa did in the 70s/80s. People don't really have much stomach for this sort of unbalanced agression.

Now the one thing I do agree with is that people tend to come out in favour of the underdog.

Palestine is a victim, but it's hardly an innocent victim.

I don't believe that what Israel is doing is right, but I also don't think there is just one bad guy in this situation, and the idea of continually calling out Israel while making excuses for the other side, isn't actually going to help the situation.

Until both sides are held to book for their actions and both sides are forced to actually abide by resolutions and accords made to bring about peace, then there will be no peace. To blame Israel for that is pointless.

 

[pk]

"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to insure our domestic security and protect our homeland."

- Adolph Hitler, 1932

 

[pk]

"Our first priority must always be the security of our nation… We will win this war; we'll protect our homeland"

- George Bush, 21st January 2002

 

[nick1181]

Palestine is a victim, but it's hardly an innocent victim.

Why? Because it tried to fight back?