My partenr and his mate infer I'm rascist 'cos I referred to 'krautrock'.

[JHE]

So it hasn't got the same connotations and history.

The 'feel' of the word 'Brit' has changed a lot. It is now very widely used, at least by the young. I get the impression some are not aware of the word 'Briton', and many are unaware of 'Brit' having been a term of hostility.

I dislike it, TBH, but am under no illusion that I can do anything about its use, beyond not using it myself.

 

[Blagsta]

The 'feel' of the word 'Brit' has changed a lot. It is now very widely used, at least by the young. I get the impression some are not aware of the word 'Briton', and many are unaware of 'Brit' having been a term of hostility.

I dislike it, TBH, but am under no illusion that I can do anything about its use, beyond not using it myself.

They do not have the same connotations and history of power. The term "brit" you say, was used by Irish Republicans, so used as a pejorative against an Imperialist power. The term "paki" is used against a country that was subject to imperial rule. Now if you were comparing the a perjorative for Irish Catholics with the word "paki", you might have a point...

 

[Blagsta]

The common republican explanation is that brits only refers to armed forces etc (and certainly not crappy award ceromonies)

So not at all similar to the word "paki".

 

[invisibleplanet]

nationalities, not ethnicities (race)

 

[JHE]

They do not have the same connotations and history of power. The term "brit" you say, was used by Irish Republicans, so used as a pejorative against an Imperialist power. The term "paki" is used against a country that was subject to imperial rule. Now if you were comparing the a perjorative for Irish Catholics with the word "paki", you might have a point...

'Proddy dog' is mostly a term of affection.

 

[Blagsta]

'Proddy dog' is mostly a term of affection.

Errr....

 

[rekil]

The BBC is infiltrated by irish republican rascialismists.

 

[JHE]

The BBC is infiltrated by irish republican rascialismists.

I know. 'Brit' is all over the place now. I half expect the BBC to rename itself the Brit Broadcasting Corp.

 

[rekil]

JHE, I suggest you cut your losses and shut it before you make yourself look even more foolish.

 

[butchersapron]

I know. 'Brit' is all over the place now. I half expect the BBC to rename itself the Brit Broadcasting Corp.

If you google for brits it uses british as an alternative term as well.

 

[JHE]

Some people who like the term 'Paki':

http://www.pakisearch.net/
http://www.paki.com/

 

[butchersapron]

Some people who like the term 'Paki':

http://www.pakisearch.net/
http://www.paki.com/

Would you use the terms paki in the UK JHE - if not, why not?

 

[JHE]

I don't. I see and hear it used in a 'reclaiming' sort of way, though.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't. I see and hear it used in a 'reclaiming' sort of way, though.

Why wouldn't you?

 

[JHE]

Why wouldn't you?

It's only a good idea to use it if you want to be disparaging about Pakistanis - though as I've pointed out there are uses that differ from that: 1. innocent, though unwise, uses and 2. 'reclaiming' ones.

 

[Blagsta]

It's only a good idea to use it if you want to be disparaging about Pakistanis - though as I've pointed out there are uses that differ from that: 1. innocent, though unwise, uses and 2. 'reclaiming' ones.

What point are you trying to make?

 

[JHE]

What point are you trying to make?

You are on odd one, Blagsta. Why do you expect some point additional to the ones I have made?

Have you had a bad drug counselling session or something?

 

[Gromit]

I don't. I see and hear it used in a 'reclaiming' sort of way, though.

At one stage you wouldn't have heard queer in a reclaiming way.
These things have to start somewhere.

If people aren't prepared to try and change a term because they are prepared to just let it remain a negative word thats kind of defeatist and racism has won a battle.

 

[butchersapron]

At one stage you wouldn't have heard queer in a reclaiming way.
These things have to start somewhere.

If people aren't prepared to try and change a term because they are prepared to just let it remain a negative word thats kind of defeatist and racism has won a battle.

Why must i or anyone else try and change a term like that into something positive? Why not let it stand as an historical marker? Why draw a smiley face on it - and frankly, i'd get a smack in the mouth if i tried to reclaim the term paki.

 

[JHE]

At one stage you wouldn't have heard queer in a reclaiming way.
These things have to start somewhere.

If people aren't prepared to try and change a term because they are prepared to just let it remain a negative word thats kind of defeatist and racism has won a battle.

Maybe, but I don't see 'reclaiming' words as much of a useful activity from most of us.

Also, sometimes great efforts at 'reclaiming' have only odd semi-success.

Three examples:

1. 'Gay' is now a pejorative among the young (similar in meaning to 'poof'/'poofy'?)
2. 'Queer' remains a pejorative term for a gay man, despite 'queer theory' etc
3. 'Nigger'/'Nigga' remains nasty and/or fighting talk, despite all the endless use of the ugly term by (some) young black men. Think of that poor dim woman who got thrown out of the Big Brother thingy

 

[Blagsta]

You are on odd one, Blagsta. Why do you expect some point additional to the ones I have made?

Have you had a bad drug counselling session or something?

You seem to be making points at a tangent to everyone else.

 

[Blagsta]

At one stage you wouldn't have heard queer in a reclaiming way.
These things have to start somewhere.

If people aren't prepared to try and change a term because they are prepared to just let it remain a negative word thats kind of defeatist and racism has won a battle.

The only people that can reclaim a word are the ones it has been used against.

 

[lights.out.london]

Ahem.

So does anyone want to talk about Krautrock? Or are we doing Philospohy of Language 101 with a touch of semantics thrown in for good measure.

e2a - Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations deals with a lot of the issues in the posts above, particularly connotation and denotation of words, and the use of words in language games (or natural languages e.g. English, German, French, mathematics and symbolic logic).

Back to the music?

 

[seeformiles]

Prompted by a mention of Tangerine Dream, I just mentioned I like krautrock, though I don't know much about it.

Partner and his friend: ' KRAUTROCK? KRAUTROCK?

You wouldn't refer to Paki-rock, would you?'

(No, definitely not! & AFAIK there is no such musical genre!)

Am I a horrendous xenophobe for using the term krautrock, or is it that they were born nearer to WW2 than me and don't see it as an accepted term for Kraftwerk, Tangerine Dream etc.?

It's about as good as "Brit-pop" - besides, I'm half a kraut and I'm not offended so tell your partner and friend to stop wringing their hands!

 

[Blagsta]

Ahem.

So does anyone want to talk about Krautrock? Or are we doing Philospohy of Language 101 with a touch of semantics thrown in for good measure.

e2a - Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations deals with a lot of the issues in the posts above, particularly connotation and denotation of words, and the use of words in language games (or natural languages e.g. English, German, French, mathematics and symbolic logic).

Back to the music?

Can are great.

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

Julian Cope has just written a book about Japrock - racist!

They call it J rocks and J pops in Japan so he is deffo a racist. Kill him and squwiggly or whatever his name was.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Can are great.

I'll second that - I listen to CAN alot
Did you know that Czukay and Schmidt were once pupils of Karlheinz Stockhausen?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

I don't like the term 'Brit' on its own, because I remember its introduction in the context of 'Brits out of N I" even though I think we should have got out.

I used to know a group of local Pakistani teenagers - 18 year olds who called each other 'Paki'. When I asked them about it they said 'it is what we are'. I would never have used the term about them though.

Kraut is a proper German word and is not an abbreviation. I think it is fine to use it allthough it would have been to an English person in WW2 meant to be derogatory.

If there had been a British rock genre known as Cabbage Rock it would not have been rude for a German to use the phrase. Or perhaps Green Rock or Herb Rock

When researching the history of Sir Francis Drake on the internet I came across lots of extracts from ancient books in which his African slaves were called 'Negroes'. He also had a senior shipmate and friend who was described as a negro. I wonder if he ever said 'I am not racist - one of my best friends is a negro. 'I also remember as a child the word 'Negroes 'being used in writing in a non derogatory way. It is not wrong to call black people black and Negro is Spanish and Portugese for black.

The nowadays insulting word 'nigger' was really derived from the Southern States of America way of pronouncing 'negro'. Of course it now carries very negative implications and is used to denigrate.

 

[Orang Utan]

They call it J rocks and J pops in Japan so he is deffo a racist. Kill him and squwiggly or whatever his name was.

he is allegedly a homophobe too

 

[Loupylou]

The only people that can reclaim a word are the ones it has been used against.

At last !