My daughters primary school is asking for money. Is that normal?

[alex_]

Why is it expensive to live in these places? Is this something you think ought to be tackled, or should policies be directed towards reinforcing such inequalities?

I can do the Socratic method too, see.

Scarety of housing ( Surrey ), isolation ( Scottish highlands ) , all sorts of reasons depending upon location.

I think you are correct re the aims of government strategy re academies. In the case of working around national pay bargaining which means academies in higher cost of living areas can recruit teachers on a bit more cash, I don’t see how that is a bad thing.

Alex

 

[Santino]

What is the argument for a national pay scale

Alex

Fuck right off; that's the argument.

 

[chilango]

Yes, but what about places just outside the London weighting or everywhere else in the country where is is expensive to live ?

How is it for those workers ?

Alex

A national pay scale doesn't necessarily mean all workers being paid the same regardless of geographical location. The teachers' pay includes London and London fringe weightings for example.

What it should stop is different schools in the same area paying differently.

Where I live many schools are outside the pay scale.

Guess what? the rich kids are taught by better paid teachers than the poor kids.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Can't believe we're having this convo on here, tbh.

I'll leave it there.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

A national pay scale doesn't necessarily mean all workers being paid the same regardless of geographical location. The teachers' pay includes London and London fringe weightings for example.

What it should stop is different schools in the same area paying differently.

Where I live many schools are outside the pay scale.

Guess what? the rich kids are taught by better paid teachers than the poor kids.

And of course the creeping normalisation of the idea that parents 'top up' school funds just reinforces such things.

 

[existentialist]

It's interesting wording. It at no point says it is voluntary. It says it knows some family budgets are tight so that are only asking for £25 if you have two kids at the school (£15 for one - I read it wrong the first time). The closest it gets to being voluntary is "The generosity of your contribution is greatly received".

I have a tear away form, and I need to write my daughters name on the back of the cheque, so they are obviously keeping a record.

It almost certainly is voluntary, but they are going to fall over themselves not to tell you that, because most people will just grumblingly cough up.

My school used to ask for a termly £10 for the "activities fund". It was also voluntary, but woe betide any boy who didn't turn up with the readies. I can remember being asked to stand up at registration and say why I hadn't brought my £10 in. My dad had told me - jokingly - to say that he "had spent it all on the horses". Being of a somewhat literal persuasion, and not being aware of the phrase, I told them exactly that. "Insolence", I think it said on the detention form.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Scarety of housing ( Surrey ), isolation ( Scottish highlands ) , all sorts of reasons depending upon location.

I think you are correct re the aims of government strategy re academies. In the case of working around national pay bargaining which means academies in higher cost of living areas can recruit teachers on a bit more cash, I don’t see how that is a bad thing.

Alex

Sorry was going to leave it, but this is absolutely mad. You think national pay bargaining is a force downwards on pay? Have a look around the world at places where national pay bargaining is common and compare them to the places where it is not common, then come back to me.

 

[chilango]

Sorry was going to leave it, but this is absolutely mad. You think national pay bargaining is a force downwards on pay? Have a look around the world at places where national pay bargaining is common and compare them to the places where it is not common, then come back to me.

Also look at the places that pay above the pay scale. Ask yourself who benefits in/from those schools?

 

[alex_]

Sorry was going to leave it, but this is absolutely mad. You think national pay bargaining is a force downwards on pay? Have a look around the world at places where national pay bargaining is common and compare them to the places where it is not common, then come back to me.

No, it means that public sector workers in huge chunks of the country are underpaid vs the local cost of living.

And the London weighting is an acknowledgement of this.

The solution to this is probably weighting salaries nationally by cost of living, but it’d cost more money and have winners and losers so won’t happen.

Alex

 

[chilango]

No, it means that public sector workers in huge chunks of the country are underpaid vs the local cost of living.

And the London weighting is an acknowledgement of this.

The solution to this is probably weighting salaries nationally by cost of living, but it’d cost more money and have winners and losers so won’t happen.

Alex

...and who should set these salaries?

 

[sheothebudworths]

You can check out the impact of cuts on your local schools here Join the campaign to oppose UK school cuts

Academies are shit but this is about funding cuts - it's fucking shameful.
There's a big campaign here, with some schools/colleges displaying banners outside showing the loss in funding city-wide and to the school - often running into hundreds of pounds, per child.
Cake sales don't cut it when you have small primaries losing £350 for each pupil in a year, so I guess this is the next, desperate step.

ETA - I just checked the area in London that I grew up in and a quick scan sees lots of schools heading toward double that, too.

 

[cupid_stunt]

You can check out the impact of cuts on your local schools here Join the campaign to oppose UK school cuts

The link on there to check local schools throws up, near me, schools are losing anywhere between £13 & £574 per pupil, that's a massive different between schools.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You can check out the impact of cuts on your local schools here Join the campaign to oppose UK school cuts

Academies are shit but this is about funding cuts - it's fucking shameful.
There's a big campaign here, with some schools/colleges displaying banners outside showing the loss in funding city-wide and to the school - often running into hundreds of pounds, per child.
Cake sales don't cut it when you have small primaries losing £350 for each pupil in a year, so I guess this is the next, desperate step.

ETA - I just checked the area in London that I grew up in and a quick scan sees lots of schools heading toward double that, too.

Fuck. I didn't know it was that bad.

Chilango's right that this is creeping towards a voucher system. A friend of mine was sending his kid to an academy primary in West London that had a lot of kids with rich parents who were destined for private schools at secondary level. Such parents would happily make up this kind of shortfall, seeing it as a saving.

 

[Winot]

The link on there to check local schools throws up, near me, schools are losing anywhere between £13 & £574 per pupil, that's a massive different between schools.

I'm not a great expert on this, but Mrs W is a governor at our state primary and I think one of the issues is cuts to SEN provision hit some schools a lot harder than others.

 

[sheothebudworths]

The link on there to check local schools throws up, near me, schools are losing anywhere between £13 & £574 per pupil, that's a massive different between schools.

ETA - this is a link to the methodology - Join the campaign to oppose UK school cuts

And this is a link to the detailed school cuts data - Dropbox - school_cuts_data

 

[Winot]

That's a really good website sheothebudworths

 

[ATOMIC SUPLEX]

You can check out the impact of cuts on your local schools here Join the campaign to oppose UK school cuts
.

Set to loose 50K by 2020. It all looks pretty grim around my way.
All the secondary schools we are looking at are set to loose about £200 per pupil per year. Bloody hell.

. . .
That is except for the god schools, who seem to only loose £30 per child. Not that that is good either. Just seems a bit disproportionate.


Edit.
Arrrh. And the school my daughter is most likely going to get into is loosing about £260 per pupil per year.

 

[sheothebudworths]

You can't focus on the figures. That's actually not too bad and the WORST thing to do is to start selecting schools based on that because it has fuck all to do with the standard of teaching, or the commitment of the teachers there, or the warmth of the school etc etc. You drive good schools into the ground when you make decisions based on the *lack* of funding they're receiving - that's not the point of posting the links, at all.

 

[friedaweed]

Rather than going all daily heil on us.

“the average primary head was on £52,000”

Which is the relavent fact here.

Alex

The relevant fact here would actually be the amount the head at Suplex's bairns school was on

 

[alex_]

The relevant fact here would actually be the amount the head at Suplex's bairns school was on

Which is ?

 

[doodlelogic]

Headteacher’s pay is a distraction. At a primary it’s not going to swing much. Workers deserve a decent wage for the job.

The real issue is the rejig of funding formulas to protect leafy shores from national cuts.

And what happened to the sugary drinks money that was supposed to plug the hole in the schools budget?

 

[sim667]

Can't say this surprises me, its been a long time coming.

When I was working in FE I taught a few courses..... generally on the National Diploma courses our materials funding would run out in Janurary/February and then we'd have to try and recycle old uncollected artwork, and beg/borrow/steal stuff from around the colleges and local businesses.

On our A-level courses, for the last 3 years or so we'd get £0 (yes, thats right, nothing) funding for materials, so we had to implement a system where students who wanted to do the course paid £50....... then we'd be militant with our supplies.

 

[friedaweed]

Which is ?

That's your task mate. I've been at work all day

How to make a freedom of information (FOI) request - GOV.UK

 

[alex_]

That's your task mate. I've been at work all day

How to make a freedom of information (FOI) request - GOV.UK

You seem to be the one who wants to know, do you think that average primary school teachers pay is more useful than average headteacher pay ?

 

[baldrick]

No, it means that public sector workers in huge chunks of the country are underpaid vs the local cost of living.

Yes, if you're in an area with lots of academies.

I see it in my job (school support staff) where starting salaries now, for a job across a trust, so more responsibility and more work are less than what I was on five years ago. This is normal now. Academisation has been awful for salaries and working conditions in general.

 

[Pickman's model]

That, and I suppose over-worked and under-paid teachers get fed up paying for "extras" like crayons and pencils and whatnot.

Orang Utan spent much of his school librarian wages on new books for the collection

 

[TruXta]

Orang Utan spent much of his school librarian wages on new books for the collection

More power to his elbow, but that's still a fucked up situation, and no one should expect teachers or anyone else to cough up for what should be basic stuff.

 

[Pickman's model]

More power to his elbow, but that's still a fucked up situation, and no one should expect teachers or anyone else to cough up for what should be basic stuff.

I agree.

 

[not-bono-ever]

i know a few teachers who top up their classrooms consumables from their own pockets just to keep a lid on things and to avoid the hassle. my employer has been doing it for years. (without him knowing)

 

[chilango]

I've known plenty of teachers who buy additional resources out of their own pockets.