Musical "Keys"

[Fong]

Cool, so which notes make up what keys?

That is more complex. My music knowledge is fuzzy, so if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

As someone stated earlier, it depends on what the Key is.

There are Major Keys and Minor Keys, and these have different 'step patterns'

As someone mentioned earlier, T T S T T T S is the Major Key and T S T T S T T

Now when you think about this, you can put it into practise. Lets use C Major cause its very easy.

T T S T T S T
A B C D E F G

This is the scale of C Major. To create a chord you take the 1st 3rd and 5th to do this we can create an image to make it easier.

C D E F G A B
D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D
F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F
A B C D E F G
B C D E F G A

Now say we want to know the Chords in C Major. We take the 1st 3rd and 5th of each Column.

C E G
D F A
E G B
F A C
G B C
A C E
B D F

These are the three notes that make up each Chord in C Major. Now due to having a bit of musical knowledge, I know that each of these chords are.

C E G = C Major
D F A = D Minor
E G B = E Major
F A C = F Major
G B C = G Major
A C E = A Minor
B D F = B Major

Now we know that D F A is D minor, because if we take the D Minor Scale

D E F G A A# C D

And we take the 1st, 3rd and 5th, D F A we have the same notes, so we know its D Minor.

This has all been done already, and there really isn't any need for us to know it all, it is enough for us to know that the Major Scale in Chords will ALWAYS go....Major, Minor, Major, Major, Major, Minor, Major.

We don't really need to know how each chord is created and then cross reference it, we know what the pattern will be.

It gets more complicated when dealing with minor keys, but that is the basics.....

proviso....I think.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

!!!!bonkers!!!

 

[Spymaster]

That is more complex. My music knowledge is fuzzy, so if I am wrong hopefully someone will correct me.

As someone stated earlier, it depends on what the Key is.

There are Major Keys and Minor Keys, and these have different 'step patterns'

As someone mentioned earlier, T T S T T T S is the Major Key and T S T T S T T

Now when you think about this, you can put it into practise. Lets use C Major cause its very easy.

T T S T T S T
A B C D E F G

This is the scale of C Major. To create a chord you take the 1st 3rd and 5th to do this we can create an image to make it easier.

C D E F G A B
D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D
F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F
A B C D E F G
B C D E F G A

Now say we want to know the Chords in C Major. We take the 1st 3rd and 5th of each Column.

C E G
D F A
E G B
F A C
G B C
A C E
B D F

These are the three notes that make up each Chord in C Major. Now due to having a bit of musical knowledge, I know that each of these chords are.

C E G = C Major
D F A = D Minor
E G B = E Major
F A C = F Major
G B C = G Major
A C E = A Minor
B D F = B Major

Now we know that D F A is D minor, because if we take the D Minor Scale

D E F G A A# C D

And we take the 1st, 3rd and 5th, D F A we have the same notes, so we know its D Minor.

This has all been done already, and there really isn't any need for us to know it all, it is enough for us to know that the Major Scale in Chords will ALWAYS go....Major, Minor, Major, Major, Major, Minor, Major.

We don't really need to know how each chord is created and then cross reference it, we know what the pattern will be.

It gets more complicated when dealing with minor keys, but that is the basics.....

proviso....I think.

 

[xenon]

'Fraid I didn't understand your post either Xen.

Is this a particularly tricky question or am I being dim?

It's a tricky one to explain. If A. you're someone who plays a bit and understands chords, scales, but not all the technical jargan as in that wiki page. it's like you kno what you're doing but don't know how to explain it.
Or
B. You're like the person who wrote that wiki page. Classically trained. Has the theoretical knowledge to back up what they know works. But can't explain it in any meaningful way to someone not simlarly in the know.

Milesy's descriptions pretty good.

It's like if something is in E major for example. That's the bass chord in the piece. you can imporovise around that using the E major scale. The key of e major's associated minor is D flat minor. It just sounds right. The E major and D flat minor scale share a lot of the same notes.

When you plonk your hand on a piano that is a chord. Whether it's a particularly pleasing one to hear is another matter.

Layman science bit. Sounds as you probably know are just made up of waves. The various shaped waves can been observed with an osylascope.

A piano chord will have 2 or more notes making up the sound. Different notes have waves resinating at different frequencies.

As I understand it. When you play say an A major for example. The wave forms match closely and it's a pleasing sound to the ear. If you hit a random selection of notes to make up a chord. The wave forms might be resinating at all different frequencies. Basically clashing in the frequency range and sounding dischordant.

That's roughly how I understand it thus far.

To me it's quite fascinating that every sound can be reduced to a mass of layered wave forms. Thus reproduced given safisticated enough hardware.



As Teejay points out there are different tuning schemes. The convention in western tuning goes back a few hundred years. Arabic tuning is different and I think it has smaller steps between notes. Less frequencies in other words. It's complex because music is basically phisics and maths behind it all.

 

[Fruitloop]

Incidentally, if you take all the arrangements of the notes of a C major scale like Fong's example above:

C D E F G A B
D E F G A B C
E F G A B C D
F G A B C D E
G A B C D E F
A B C D E F G
B C D E F G A

Then written from left to right you have all the major modes - all the possible combinations of seven tone and semitone steps that get you back to an octave above or below, ionian, dorian, myxolydian, lydian etc etc.

 

[Fong]

Not sure about that B Major at the end there, I think that it might be a different chord, but lets test it out!

T T S T T T S
B C# D# E F# G# A# B

So 1st, 3rd and 5th is.

B D# F#

Which is what I thought, the last chord isn't a Major Chord. Because it is B D F in the scale of C Major, and that is not the B Major Chord.

I know its a diminshed chord and I have a vague recollection of why, but not good enough to explain it to someone else, when you start talking diminished and augumented chords it gets REALLY complicated.

So I am not even going to go there.

 

[Fruitloop]

It's the hypophrygian mode, with a flattened secondth.

I think it's the same as what's called the Locrian mode - it's a bit theoretical and didn't actually get used in any music, it's just a logical extension of the other modal patterns.

 

[Spymaster]

It's the hypophrygian mode, with a flattened secondth.

You taking the piss now?

 

[Fruitloop]

I wish!

 

[Spymaster]

It's a tricky one to explain. If A. you're someone who plays a bit and understands chords, scales, but not all the technical jargan as in that wiki page. it's like you kno what you're doing but don't know how to explain it.
Or
B. You're like the person who wrote that wiki page. Classically trained. Has the theoretical knowledge to back up what they know works. But can't explain it in any meaningful way to someone not simlarly in the know.

Milesy's descriptions pretty good.

It's like if something is in E major for example. That's the bass chord in the piece. you can imporovise around that using the E major scale. The key of e major's associated minor is D flat minor. It just sounds right. The E major and D flat minor scale share a lot of the same notes.

When you plonk your hand on a piano that is a chord. Whether it's a particularly pleasing one to hear is another matter.

Layman science bit. Sounds as you probably know are just made up of waves. The various shaped waves can been observed with an osylascope.

A piano chord will have 2 or more notes making up the sound. Different notes have waves resinating at different frequencies.

As I understand it. When you play say an A major for example. The wave forms match closely and it's a pleasing sound to the ear. If you hit a random selection of notes to make up a chord. The wave forms might be resinating at all different frequencies. Basically clashing in the frequency range and sounding dischordant.

That's roughly how I understand it thus far.

To me it's quite fascinating that every sound can be reduced to a mass of layered wave forms. Thus reproduced given safisticated enough hardware.



As Teejay points out there are different tuning schemes. The convention in western tuning goes back a few hundred years. Arabic tuning is different and I think it has smaller steps between notes. Less frequencies in other words. It's complex because music is basically phisics and maths behind it all.

Cheers for this. One of the few posts on the thread that I actually understood !

 

[xenon]

See this is where I get completely lost.

hypophrygian modess. Orgmented triads.


i can play guitar and harmonise things, know what key works with which scales, but haven't a clue about what modes or otherwise I'm using.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

it's a diminished chord becasue it has two minor thirds (3 semitones) layerd on one another. An augmented chord is 2 major thirds layered.


ie= B -> D = Minor 3rd (3 semitones)

D -> F = Minor 3rd (3 semitones)

B D F = Augmented

C -> E# = Minor 3rd (3 semitones)
E#-> G = Major 3rd (4 semitones)

A minor Chord is A Min 3rd + Maj 3rd

C E# G = C minor

A major chord is a major third (4 semitones) and a minor third.

C -> E = Maj 3rd (4 semitones)
E -> g = Min 3rd (3 semitones)

C E G = C major chord!

TA DAAA!

 

[Fruitloop]

To be honest in music history as a whole the practise of composition and stuff mostly went first, and the theory chases after. It's only when you get to the 20th century and the theory starts to run ahead of the compositional practise that it all goes wonky and everyone stops listening.

 

[Fong]

Thing is when you learning music theory they will likely ignore the Diminished Chords to start with and teach you "Three Chord Theory"

This is the 1st, the 4th and the 5th Chord of each group, which all sound very nice, in whichever order they are played.

Given the Example I gave above of C Major.

C Major, F Major, G Major.

Play those three Chords, which you can play on ANY instrument (if you know the notes on the instrument) because you know what Notes make up those Chords.

C E G = C Major
F A C = F Major
G B C = G Major

So you can play those three notes, together, in any order on any instrument and be assured that what you play, will sound ok.

To give you an idea, just picked up my guitar, played in major chords:

G F C
C F G
G C F
F C G
F G C
C G F

All sounded absolutely perfect.

 

[Spymaster]

Chord - the vertical aspect - which tones can be played together and what is the effect in terms of the consonance and stability of the chord - does it sounds like a point of rest or a chord that wants to go somewhere?

Are all chords necessarily in a certain key?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

To be honest in music history as a whole the practise of composition and stuff mostly went first, and the theory chases after. It's only when you get to the 20th century and the theory starts to run ahead of the compositional practise that it all goes wonky and everyone stops listening.

MMMMMMMM Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiice!

 

[TeeJay]

And yeah, it's a weird hangover from ages ago when there were more clefs, and movable clefs and stuff.

It is helpful when the notes end up more or less in the middle of the clef, rather than being way above or below the stave.

I think there is also a factor to do with the natural harmonics of an instrument - eg the 'open notes' (no valves pressed) on a brass instrument.

 

[Fong]

Are all chords necessarily in a certain key?

No, Chords are not assigned a Key alone.

For instance, C Major the Chord will appear in several different Keys, with just that chord, you can't decide what the Key is.

Keys are for deciding which group of Chords go together.

You only know the C Major Chord is in the Key of C when you know it is with A minor, D Minor, G Major and F Major.

Then you can probably work out that all of these chords ONLY appear in the C Major Key. Some may appear in other keys, but it is only when you have them all together that they ALL appear in the Key of C.

 

[TeeJay]

Are all chords necessarily in a certain key?

Not really - a chord can stand completely on its own, it doesn't have to be in a key. A certain key however will have chords contained within it.

 

[Fruitloop]

Are all chords necessarily in a certain key?

Good question. This might be one particular area where a bit of terminological rigour would hep rather than hinder. Maybe.

There are lots of different kinds of chords, from triads to dimished chords to forehead-on-the-piano chords. Triads always have a key - that's kind of the definition of a triad, that it contains three notes arranged in such a way as to delineate a key, so C, E, G is a triad ( a C Major one) , and C, D, E isn't.

But triads also exist in a piece of music, where their specific key has a functional place in a larger key-scheme, called the 'tonality', but also confusingly referred to as the 'key' of the piece - but this is 'key' in a larger sense than chords themselves have keys. So any chord in a tonal piece of music, even a diminished or augmented one, has a role in the overall tonality, even though it doesn't necessarily outline a specific key itself in the way that a triad does.

 

[Spymaster]

Teejay - Ok, so it seems that to spot which key a piece is in, is beyond the ability of all but the most accomplished music theorists?

Even your "average" musician would find it challenging?

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

If you just listen and try to work it out then yes.

However, if I was to have a keyboard infront of me and was told to work out how to play something. I could, and then just transpose the piece of music so it was in the "right key"

Like I might work it out in C major and then transpose it so it doesn't clash with the music coming out of my CD player.

 

[Fong]

Teejay - Ok, so it seems that to spot which key a piece is in, is beyond the ability of all but the most accomplished music theorists?

Even your "average" musician would find it challenging?

Your average musician would find it very challenging, as your average musician has very little music theory knowledge. I been playing guitar for 16 years, I am quite accomplished at playing very complex pieces of music, right nice classical pieces.

I could not tell you what Key a piece of music was in, without a good hour, a pen and a piece of paper and some knowledge as to what Chords were being played in the piece to start with.

The thing to remember is that the Theory is just the maths behind what the Ear tells you.

Your Ear knows what sounds good and what doesn't, you don't need to know music theory to know what sounds good and what doesn't, its completely secondary to creating music.

 

[Spymaster]

I've been told that the key of a classical piece can be defined by the key of the last chord played.

Any truth in that?

 

[Fruitloop]

You probably need to hear the last three. Generally cadences (closing harmonic gestures) go from some closely related chords through the dominant or sub-dominant to the tonic - the principal chord - but the odd one goes from the tonic back to the dominant. On balance of probablities you'd be right much more often than wrong if you assumed that the last chord is the key of the piece, though.

 

[Fong]

I've been told that the key of a classical piece can be defined by the key of the last chord played.

Any truth in that?

No I don't think so.

For instance in a piece of music called "Classical Gas" by Mason Williams which is written as an old classical piece, the last chord of the entire Song is completely out of whack with the rest of the piece and was put in to create a particular sound, a finality to the piece.

This is one example I am fully aware of, but I expect there are many more within the classical world.

 

[Spymaster]

No I don't think so.

For instance in a piece of music called "Classical Gas" by Mason Williams which is written as an old classical piece, the last chord of the entire Song is completely out of whack with the rest of the piece and was put in to create a particular sound, a finality to the piece.

But isn't that the exception rather than the rule?

Like the last chord of Mozart's Eine Musikalische Spas?

 

[Spymaster]

You probably need to hear the last three. Generally cadences (closing harmonic gestures) go from some closely related chords through the dominant or sub-dominant to the tonic - the principal chord - but the odd one goes from the tonic back to the dominant. On balance of probablities you'd be right much more often than wrong if you assumed that the last chord is the key of the piece, though.

Gotcha.

 

[pooka]

Ah! Now we're getting somewhere.

So the various "keys" contain prescribed notes.

So a piece written in a certain "key" would specifically contain some notes and not others?

That is EXACTLY right

Does that mean that, given that there are only so many notes on the scale, there is a minimum number of notes you have to hear before being able to determine the key eg a simple melody line of say five notes might be in any one of a number of keys?

 

[Spymaster]

Does that mean that, given that there are only so many notes on the scale, there is a minimum number of notes you have to hear before being able to determine the key eg a simple melody line of say five notes might be in any one of a number of keys?

Cor blimey, these amateurs !