murder at highbury and islington tube

[catrina]

i don't think it's proven that preventing a suicide in one instance means the attempter will inevitably do it by some other means. they have limited the size of paracetomol packets for this very reason, and in doing so suicide rates have decreased.

in any case, this is all beside the point. i wasn't even arguing that it's up to tfl to defend us all from these random acts, as it's clearly not their fault. however, if this person was commuting home on the newer portion of the jubilee line, he wouldn't be dead. i just wanted to point out to other urbanites what happened. it's extremely unlikely, but nonetheless frightening.

i don't even know what the perpetrators illness is claimed to be, and at the time of the original posting i had thought it was an accident.

 

[Radar]

i don't think it's proven that preventing a suicide in one instance means the attempter will inevitably do it by some other means. they have limited the size of paracetomol packets for this very reason, and in doing so suicide rates have decreased.

Hmmm, I've wondered about that paracetomol measure myself.

It can only protect someone about to kill themselves who is totally incapabile of any advance planning whatsoever. If this measure is working, it would imply that the majority of suicide are spur of the moment and unplanned, which is depressing

Anyhow, as you say, it's a bit of a digression.

iany case, this is all beside the point. i wasn't even arguing that it's up to tfl to defend us all from these random acts, as it's clearly not their fault. however, if this person was commuting home on the newer portion of the jubilee line, he wouldn't be dead.

I didnt read your comments like that, I read them as "We need platform gates everywhere on the network due to the random nutter menace". Emotive phrases like "How do you explain it to his family" or "Think of the driver and other passengers" only served to reinforce that impression.

Perhaps that's my problem, rather than yours

 

[liberty]

I remember on the radio they said don't go that was as its closed

Very sad

 

[Yossarian]

i don't think it's proven that preventing a suicide in one instance means the attempter will inevitably do it by some other means. they have limited the size of paracetomol packets for this very reason, and in doing so suicide rates have decreased.

Yep, I reckon that's true - I've read that studies have shown that suicides thwarted at a 'cluster' location like the Empire State Building or somewhere rarely go on to attempt suicide somewhere else - I suppose the Tube would count as a cluster location.

 

[Monkeynuts]

Yep, I reckon that's true - I've read that studies have shown that suicides thwarted at a 'cluster' location like the Empire State Building or somewhere rarely go on to attempt suicide somewhere else - I suppose the Tube would count as a cluster location.

Well, quite - with a mere 275 stations

 

[catrina]

I didnt read your comments like that, I read them as "We need platform gates everywhere on the network due to the random nutter menace". Emotive phrases like "How do you explain it to his family" or "Think of the driver and other passengers" only served to reinforce that impression.

without going back through the whole thread, loud 1 put forward that maybe there should be barriers at all tubes. monkeynuts replied that it is more important to have decent mental healthcare than barriers.

in the context of this statement, i was reacting to the 'more important' bit, as this weights one life against anothers, which i strongly disagree with. this was all just an unfortunate act, but it highlights the problems of tube trains, and i would think that barriers are a viable solution. not to save us from random nutters, but i think suicide on the tubes is a big problem, both for individuals and for tube drivers. these barriers could also prevent someone falling onto the rail during rush hour, which i can imagine has happened as well.

they put the barriers up on the jubilee line to prevent passengers from throwing themselves in front of the train, and to prevent tube drivers from having to have the experience of inadvertently running over someone who has jumped in front of them. in this context, these barriers would have saved someone's life, and the tube drivers. i can't see that as a bad thing

but, i didn't post this thread to argue about barriers, just to post the story!

 

[WouldBe]

but it highlights the problems of tube trains, and i would think that barriers are a viable solution. not to save us from random nutters, but i think suicide on the tubes is a big problem,

But what would you do about the parts of the underground that are overground?

 

[Monkeynuts]

monkeynuts replied that it is more important to have decent mental healthcare than barriers.

in the context of this statement, i was reacting to the 'more important' bit, as this weights one life against anothers, which i strongly disagree with. this was all just an unfortunate act, but it highlights the problems of tube trains, and i would think that barriers are a viable solution.

Firstly, no I didn't.

Secondly, it is about logic. I am not being deliberately rude but what other people are arguing seems to be a bit complicated for you to understand, unless you are just one of those random, disordered people with whom it is impossible to engage.

Imagine a disturbed person. There are various harmful things he could choose to do. Perhaps we can think of ten. He might choose to kill someone. I can think of ten ways he might do this. Perhaps he might choose to set something on fire. Again I can think of about ten ways he could do this. What you are suggesting is that we tackle ONE of the ways of killing someone, only one of any number of harmful things he could do.

Don't you see it makes more sense if possible to try and look after the disturbed person and prevent it getting to the point where he wants to do something harmful, than try and stop him doing individual harmful acts? How can we ever think of all the possible ways? After the Tube, what next? The trains? And then? Edges of every road? And if because is prevented from pushing people into danger he decides to stab them instead?

Not only does this make a lot more sense, it's better for the disturbed individual involved... who should be getting the treatment they need anyway, whether or not there is any risk they might be dangerous!

You are just not making any sense woman.

Yes, it's awful but do try and understand the idea of risk. With 275 stations + overground + trams + DLR it would cost hundreds of millions. How many lives would it save? At what cost each? Or would it just make sure most those deaths happened somewhere else instead?

 

[catrina]

We need to look more at mental health care than fitting platform edge barriers to prevent being pushed under trains by disturbed individuals.

is this not what you said earlier?

 

[catrina]

you are not making sense. nowhere have i said it is not important to take care of the mentally ill. it does not have to be one or the other.

but can you not see that the tube line is a dangerous place, and barriers are a way to protect individuals from falling on the track, regardless of whether they've been pushed, put themselves there, or accidentally fell off a crowded platform?

i'm not trying to create a plan for putting barriers on the london underground! but i certainly don't think they're a bad thing.

 

[dweller]

INTERUPTION

You are just not making any sense woman.

Spoilt Brat talking to his mum in Viz springs to mind.

END OF INTERRUPTION ,
PLEASE CARRY ON

 

[Monkeynuts]

Will do.

State of system for looking after patients with mental health problems: not as good as it could be

Platform edge barriers, good idea?: yes

Platform edge barriers, would they be cost effective?: possibly not

Does that wrap it up?

 

[loud 1]

without going back through the whole thread, loud 1 put forward that maybe there should be barriers at all tubes. monkeynuts replied that it is more important to have decent mental healthcare than barriers.

in the context of this statement, i was reacting to the 'more important' bit, as this weights one life against anothers, which i strongly disagree with. this was all just an unfortunate act, but it highlights the problems of tube trains, and i would think that barriers are a viable solution. not to save us from random nutters, but i think suicide on the tubes is a big problem, both for individuals and for tube drivers. these barriers could also prevent someone falling onto the rail during rush hour, which i can imagine has happened as well.

they put the barriers up on the jubilee line to prevent passengers from throwing themselves in front of the train, and to prevent tube drivers from having to have the experience of inadvertently running over someone who has jumped in front of them. in this context, these barriers would have saved someone's life, and the tube drivers. i can't see that as a bad thing

but, i didn't post this thread to argue about barriers, just to post the story!

totally agree..

accidents do also happen,people DO fall on to the tracks,i feel it would be a viable,and responsible action to take with barriers.

 

[TonkaToy]

As a point of risk management theory, it is always preferable to remove hazards as early as possible rather than provide a physical barrier to prevent it happening at the very last moment, when it effectively already has happened.

As regards the merits of providing barriers, beside the point that murderers and suicides will obviously just find other ways and places, there is on the Tube the idea of "Value of Avoiding a Fatality". Clearly it wouldn't be worth spending £100m to prevent one person dying in an accident, and in fact a cost is attached to a life to decide on whether it is worth doing something.

They do actually want the barriers throughout the tube. Those barriers just don't only save lives. They also prevent litter being chucked onto the tracks, litter causes huge problems including small fires. Remember once litter is chucked onto the tracks, the wind effect iwithout the barriers pushes a lot of litter into the tunnels.

 

[TonkaToy]

But what would you do about the parts of the underground that are overground?

Barriers...depending on the size of the platform. Some platforms overground are very wide, so there is no need to stand anywhere near the edge...such stations don't need barriers...the rest do.

 

[detective-boy]

Is this the reason why the Victoria Line was shut this morning? The Picadilly Line was doubly packed, they keep saying it's engineering works but I'm not convinced...

I would have expected the police to release the crime scene within about 6 hours. There would not be a lot there to be found to be honest. I think that is what has been reported. It sounds to be that the serial incompetents called Metronet are simply squeezing the last drop out of it as an excsue for their usual failure to complete works on time.

 

[WouldBe]

Barriers...depending on the size of the platform. Some platforms overground are very wide, so there is no need to stand anywhere near the edge...such stations don't need barriers...the rest do.

I was on about the track between stations. If someone wants to throw themselves infront of a tube train theres not a lot you can do about it on the overground sections.