Multiculturalism

[toblerone3]

I found this on Abdur Rahman's blog.

"According to today’s Independent, by next year Muhammad will officially become the most popular name in the UK. They ran an interesting story on this topic, by offering short interviews with 15 men with the name of Muhammad. I think this is a very interesting story, and one which will probably also excite the usual right-wing furore.

The popularity of the name Muhammad certainly does demonstrate the shifting nature of UK society over recent decades. It reminds me of a song by a group called Galliano, called ‘Leg in the Sea of History’. The song’s lyrics include the following lines:

‘Culture’s not static, but always shifts
this is no shame, more a gift’.

And may Allah make it so here too.

Ma’as salama,
Abdur Rahman"

 

[derf]

how come you're a muslim derf?

Long answer but relevant to the thread. I used to be Islamaphobic (and racist for that matter). I read far too much daily mail and believe the blokes down the pub about what 'pakis' and 'Muzzies' (Sorry but that's what they were. and still are, often called but not by me anymore).
It wasn't until I started meeting and getting to know people from other cultures that I realised there are no 'Pakis' and so on but just people with another way and another culture. After a while I decided to go on trips to various countries. Some of these were Muslim countries where people were not preaching Islam to me but showing me what it was all really about by actions so much as words.
Didn't take long to work out that all the daily mail and blokes down the pub were telling me was a pile of old bollocks.
After the second year I was seeing a lifestyle I really liked and that suited me very well so it wasn't going to take much to move me from Christianity to Islam.
The final thing was meeting this amazing lady, a Muslim. never met anyone like her and we got married a year later.
To legally marry in a Muslim country (Indonesia anyway) you have to be of the same religion.
While we could have just married elsewhere and still be legal it wasn't much of a step for me so I converted.
Great move. No more boozing is just a bonus. never liked pork much so that was no loss but miss the black pudding.

Anyway, the point of why this is relevant to the thread. As I got to know these supposedly evil Muslims I found out that most were just the same as any other bugger and that it was only the lack of understanding that was the problem.
That's why I advocate getting to know people from as many cultures as you can. No mystery means understanding and that keeps hate well away.

 

[camouflage]

I found this on Abdur Rahman's blog.

"According to today’s Independent, by next year Muhammad will officially become the most popular name in the UK. They ran an interesting story on this topic, by offering short interviews with 15 men with the name of Muhammad. I think this is a very interesting story, and one which will probably also excite the usual right-wing furore.

The popularity of the name Muhammad certainly does demonstrate the shifting nature of UK society over recent decades. It reminds me of a song by a group called Galliano, called ‘Leg in the Sea of History’. The song’s lyrics include the following lines:

‘Culture’s not static, but always shifts
this is no shame, more a gift’.

And may Allah make it so here too.

Ma’as salama,
Abdur Rahman"

Er... I don't want to live in a muslim culture. That's right I sed it.

 

[camouflage]

Long answer but relevant to the thread. I used to be Islamaphobic (and racist for that matter). I read far too much daily mail and believe the blokes down the pub about what 'pakis' and 'Muzzies' (Sorry but that's what they were. and still are, often called but not by me anymore).
It wasn't until I started meeting and getting to know people from other cultures that I realised there are no 'Pakis' and so on but just people with another way and another culture. After a while I decided to go on trips to various countries. Some of these were Muslim countries where people were not preaching Islam to me but showing me what it was all really about by actions so much as words.
Didn't take long to work out that all the daily mail and blokes down the pub were telling me was a pile of old bollocks.
After the second year I was seeing a lifestyle I really liked and that suited me very well so it wasn't going to take much to move me from Christianity to Islam.
The final thing was meeting this amazing lady, a Muslim. never met anyone like her and we got married a year later.
To legally marry in a Muslim country (Indonesia anyway) you have to be of the same religion.
While we could have just married elsewhere and still be legal it wasn't much of a step for me so I converted.
Great move. No more boozing is just a bonus. never liked pork much so that was no loss but miss the black pudding.

Anyway, the point of why this is relevant to the thread. As I got to know these supposedly evil Muslims I found out that most were just the same as any other bugger and that it was only the lack of understanding that was the problem.
That's why I advocate getting to know people from as many cultures as you can. No mystery means understanding and that keeps hate well away.

I nice story, I vistited the muslim world too and it was good to get that "human beings being human" vibe from an islamic society for a change instead of the "Behead those who insult Islam!" vibe you get here. The first morning I was on the hotel roof and the call to prayer sounded up across this medeival city of desert browns and satalitte dishes beneath a deep blue sky, it was beautiful and touching.

It struck me this sense of human beings being human, I would'nt say it was beautiful in a way specific to islam, it was touching and evocative as Tibetan monks chanting would be, or even bells and spires in the english countryside on a sunday morning. Reliion is human beings reflecting themselves, our communal howling at the human faces we see in the clouds. It's nice... in fact it's kind of cute. All good fun until someone gets hurt anyway.

There are aspects of muslim culture I could like. Now I try alot more to tolerate religion as just something that human beings generaly do. But I don't want to live in any culture dominated by a religion*.

I noticed that muslim society is particularly favourable to men, mostly men are seen out and about in the street and they all looked very comfortable in their own skin, but not so much the women who hurried about here and there like a minority, swaddled in their robes looking defensive or burdened, that's unbalanced.

It doesn't surprise me you were able to embrace islam if you started off being racist and narrow minded. Don't mean that to be nasty but.... it does kind of fit. Like former communists who go fash sort of thing.

*Well, maybe Taoism, totally bonkers of course like the rest of em but nicely poetic

 

[kyser_soze]

I found this on Abdur Rahman's blog.

"According to today’s Independent, by next year Muhammad will officially become the most popular name in the UK. They ran an interesting story on this topic, by offering short interviews with 15 men with the name of Muhammad. I think this is a very interesting story, and one which will probably also excite the usual right-wing furore.

The popularity of the name Muhammad certainly does demonstrate the shifting nature of UK society over recent decades. It reminds me of a song by a group called Galliano, called ‘Leg in the Sea of History’. The song’s lyrics include the following lines:

‘Culture’s not static, but always shifts
this is no shame, more a gift’.

And may Allah make it so here too.

Ma’as salama,
Abdur Rahman"

True, but aren't there a certain group of names in Islam beloved of the prophet or something? Kinda narrows the choice of names down a bit if most of the kids born are given one name. Plus IME of data quality monitoring, there are different naming conventions for Muslims - someone please feel free to correct me...

 

[HobgoblinMan]

There are aspects of muslim culture I could like. Now I try alot more to tolerate religion as just something that human beings generaly do. But I don't want to live in any culture dominated by a religion

*Well, maybe Taoism, totally bonkers of course like the rest of em but nicely poetic

Agreed, November. Living one's life according to a religion baffles me and is not a choice I would ever take. I can never understand why there are restrictions on what food you can/can't eat (it's only food!!), types of clothing that must be worn, not being allowed to work or lift a finger on certain days of the week etc. It's just a bit weird to me and rather absurd. Christianity is one of the major religions that does not dictate your culture, in fact in Christian countries, what dictates your culture is more often than not your nationality. This is different in Islam and Judaism for instance, where the culture is dictated a lot more in line with the religion rather than the country of origin of the practitioners.

I aint dissing no relgion here, anyone can do what they want, coolio, tis all good. I just long for a world where everyone does away with these monotheistic religions which I think are well past their use by date, praise Jah, roll a joint and start getting into existentialism.

Great story btw Derf.

 

[isitme]

Agreed, November. Living one's life according to a religion baffles me and is not a choice I would ever take. I can never understand why there are restrictions on what food you can/can't eat (it's only food!!), types of clothing that must be worn, not being allowed to work or lift a finger on certain days of the week etc. It's just a bit weird to me and rather absurd. Christianity is one of the major religions that does not dictate your culture, in fact in Christian countries, what dictates your culture is more often than not your nationality. This is different in Islam and Judaism for instance, where the culture is dictated a lot more in line with the religion rather than the country of origin of the practitioners.

I can see the sense in encouraging people to eat well, dress well, making sure to have a day a week off work etc

I don't think it's meant to be taken to extremes like sharia law, but I can see the sense of having some sort of code and if religion gives you that fair dos

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

I've seen all that multi culti bull time and time again and it truly is a load of old bollocks.
There is only one way that all the cultures in the Uk or anywhere else are going to get along. That is for the mystery to be removed.
So many times I've heard about all 'chinks' eating cats and all 'ragheads' doing whatever. Of course it's all bullshit but it's the sort of story you get generated when there is an unknown culture about. The daily hate mail is a wonderful example of that.

Tolerance suggests that you are accepting tensions and just asking people to put things aside for the sake of peace. What I would like to see is all communities taking part in events to let all the other groups know about them and giving them chance to learn about the others. Remove the mystery and you remove the ability to make up stories. That way fear is lost and we can all get on with living together in a world where we don't tolerate each other but Mohammad, Zachariasz and Alan talk on a street corner as any other bunch of mates would.

I don't ask anyone to put away their culture but ask every one to bend a little for the sake of harmony. Open your doors to others and let them see that whatever else you are, you are just people like everyone else.

I know Malaysia probably has heaps of problems, but a mate who lives there, a white british guy with a malaysian chinese wife, was telling me about the life there and it seems such a good example. The main non-MAlay ethnic groups there still remain 'chinese' or 'indian' at heart, yet also consider themselves Malaysian. He was saying how during the different festivals, the different communities open their doors to people from other communities, so at times during Eidh, he'll go to loads of Muslim Malay peoples houses for nosh, or during Diwali he'll go to Indian Malay peoples houses, and similarly they have loads of different people over during Chinese New Year.
Shame we can't be more like that.

 

[derf]

I know Malaysia probably has heaps of problems, but a mate who lives there, a white british guy with a malaysian chinese wife, was telling me about the life there and it seems such a good example. The main non-MAlay ethnic groups there still remain 'chinese' or 'indian' at heart, yet also consider themselves Malaysian. He was saying how during the different festivals, the different communities open their doors to people from other communities, so at times during Eidh, he'll go to loads of Muslim Malay peoples houses for nosh, or during Diwali he'll go to Indian Malay peoples houses, and similarly they have loads of different people over during Chinese New Year.
Shame we can't be more like that.

Malaysia has problems under the surface but what you say is a truth for the most part. Or at least my take on the place.
Same goes here. There are minority Christian, taoist and various other groups but it's only a few people that advocate hate. There are some bloody great temples about an hour away from me and you find mostly Muslims visiting the place.

 

[kyser_soze]

I can never understand why there are restrictions on what food you can/can't eat (it's only food!!),

Consider the following:

No real refrigeration 000s of years ago
Pork goes off really quick in high temperature

So, would you say it's a good idea for societies that were in hot climes and had no refigeration to have a proscription about eating a meat that went off quickly? Try looking at the environment, time etc that the religions were born and you generally get more insight into why these things occur.

 

[derf]

I nice story, I vistited the muslim world too and it was good to get that "human beings being human" vibe from an islamic society for a change instead of the "Behead those who insult Islam!" vibe you get here.

There are aspects of muslim culture I could like. Now I try alot more to tolerate religion as just something that human beings generaly do. But I don't want to live in any culture dominated by a religion*.

I noticed that muslim society is particularly favourable to men, mostly men are seen out and about in the street and they all looked very comfortable in their own skin, but not so much the women who hurried about here and there like a minority, swaddled in their robes looking defensive or burdened, that's unbalanced.

It doesn't surprise me you were able to embrace islam if you started off being racist and narrow minded. Don't mean that to be nasty but.... it does kind of fit. Like former communists who go fash sort of thing.

*Well, maybe Taoism, totally bonkers of course like the rest of em but nicely poetic

The first paragraph raises an important point. It is common to get that 'nasty' vibe from many UK (Usually Pakistani) Muslims. This is why it's important to open up. More so if you are a large ethnic group in a country where you are viewed as a bit suss. Sadly this isn't happening so fear continues and hate is it's companion. This may not be popular to say, but it's the fault of that community they are seen that way.

Depending on where you go a society dominated by religion isn't such a bad thing. Lots of European countries are Catholic but the women don't all dress like nuns. The same goes here. Women have about equal status as men in society. No daft rules about no being with men who aren't your husband or brother crap here.
No enforced wearing of anything but it's the social norm for women to dress modestly. Most dress like a lass in the UK may in a skirt or jeans but won't have a low cut T shirt or wear short skirts/shorts.
Other than that you would see the same sort of clothes on Oxford street any Saturday afternoon.

The reason I had racist attitudes was I grew up with them. The people I grew up with thought non whites were rubbish. No one knew any but everyone said it so it must be true.
It's only when you meet other people and get to know them that you see the truth.

I've visited many a temple and enjoy the calm you see. I few years back I was invited to stay while the monks in one did their prayer ritual. I was honoured to be allowed to stay and did see a nice way to be. Not so much in the prayers, but in the attitude. I know it doesn't seem it with my posting record but I'm quite a calm sort of guy and that type of thing works well for me. If I didn't believe in a greater power I would have ended up going that way. Buddhism and Islam share a good few common traits when you look more closely even if it doesn't look that way at first glance.

 

[phildwyer]

To legally marry in a Muslim country (Indonesia anyway) you have to be of the same religion.

Thank Christ that's not true in Turkey, where my wife is from. I've grown quite attached to my foreskin. Did it hurt as much as they say?

 

[derf]

Thank Christ that's not true in Turkey, where my wife is from. I've grown quite attached to my foreskin. Did it hurt as much as they say?

Done in a jiffy but you don't need to wear tight jeans for a few days.

 

[Zachor]

Agreed, November. Living one's life according to a religion baffles me and is not a choice I would ever take. I can never understand why there are restrictions on what food you can/can't eat (it's only food!!), types of clothing that must be worn, not being allowed to work or lift a finger on certain days of the week etc. It's just a bit weird to me and rather absurd.

It IS weird but strangely I find a liberation in the rules of religion. I find I question myself far more now than I ever did in the past. I like the fact that from Fri night to Sat night I do no 'work' and the fact that I have to think before I eat and give to charity and that I have to accept that in every generation there will be people who want to kill me for absolutely no reason at all**.

Its weird the more rules I follow the more I want to follow the rules as it gives me more of a purpose.

Great story btw Derf.

I agree. I looked at Islam but felt that it wasn't right for me and this was after I got to know some fab liberal Muslims. I must admit I have a problem with the 'beheading' nutters and feel that they need to be slapped down by society but I know that this is not the totality of Islam and that most muslims I come across don't want anything to do with the nutcases.

** Well, to be honest I could do without the people wanting to kill me bit

 

[phildwyer]

It IS weird but strangely I find a liberation in the rules of religion.

That is exactly how the observant Muslims I know have phrased it.

 

[Crispy]

That is exactly how the observant Muslims I know have phrased it.

It's one of the most attractive factors of many religions. By providing a framework and answers to so much of life, it gives you plenty of time and energy to concentrate on other stuff.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's one of the most attractive factors of many religions. By providing a framework and answers to so much of life, it gives you plenty of time and energy to concentrate on other stuff.

but it also allows one to become lax in checking ones ethics and reliant on a set of moral strictures as defined by The Book and interpreted by the Pasto/imam/monk.

 

[phildwyer]

It's one of the most attractive factors of many religions. By providing a framework and answers to so much of life, it gives you plenty of time and energy to concentrate on other stuff.

Aye. I don't practice any organized religion myself, but when I read people here or elsewhere fretting that they drink too much, or are too fat, or have made dodgy sexual choices, it often occurs to me that such problems don't arise for the religiously observant Muslim. Still, I'm sure that other difficulties emerge to take their place.

 

[Crispy]

I'm sure that other difficulties emerge to take their place.

Ask a Catholic

 

[phildwyer]

but it also allows one to become lax in checking ones ethics and reliant on a set of moral strictures as defined by The Book and interpreted by the Pasto/imam/monk.

Actually both Protestantism and Islam place a premium on the individual's interpretation of Scripture, rather than that of religious authorities. They are, if you will, anti-clerical religions.

 

[isitme]

The first paragraph raises an important point. It is common to get that 'nasty' vibe from many UK (Usually Pakistani) Muslims. This is why it's important to open up. More so if you are a large ethnic group in a country where you are viewed as a bit suss. Sadly this isn't happening so fear continues and hate is it's companion. This may not be popular to say, but it's the fault of that community they are seen that way.
.

as a generalisation this is probably true for the white population of england as well. and other groupings of people

I can imagine a lot of muslims etc feeling intimidated

 

[HobgoblinMan]

Consider the following:

No real refrigeration 000s of years ago
Pork goes off really quick in high temperature

So, would you say it's a good idea for societies that were in hot climes and had no refigeration to have a proscription about eating a meat that went off quickly? Try looking at the environment, time etc that the religions were born and you generally get more insight into why these things occur.

I don't understand this. Do Jews not eat pork because "it used to go off really quickly". I don't think so. And do shellfish go off more quickly than fish with scales??? We have fridges now, so if that was an issue then it isn't now.

 

[kyser_soze]

Then you need to think more about the subject basically. Think about the role and importance of the continuity of tradition; the link to the past (and the future) the maintainance of such traditions brings. Basically, think about what religions are, how they work rather than whether something 'makes sense' to you from your own perspective.

as a generalisation this is probably true for the white population of england as well. and other groupings of people

I can imagine a lot of muslims etc feeling intimidated

I think I know what derf is getting at - I've met and worked with muslims from all over, and while some are very open and easy going, some take the view that any non-believers are unclean and only worth being polite to, but never worth getting to know personally (unless they embrace the true faith of course ).

 

[Zachor]

I don't understand this. Do Jews not eat pork because "it used to go off really quickly". I don't think so. And do shellfish go off more quickly than fish with scales??? We have fridges now, so if that was an issue then it isn't now.

That is a point of view put over by some Liberal Jews. Some of them say that the Laws of Kashrut (dietary laws) are outdated and have no relevance to modern life. Similarily the Family Purity Laws some of which dictate the separation between a husband and wife during and after menstruation and the rules for ritual purity and impurity re sexual relations are not often observed by Liberal Jews as many see them as 'anti woman'.

I find the separation of meat and milk in Kashrut odd at times but it does at least keep me away from Cheeseburgers .

Yes shelfish does go off like billy oh in warmer climbs.

 

[weltweit]

I am not really in favour of multiculturalism. I prefer that everybody mixes together in a melting pot and dividing lines are blurred.

It seems inevitable that there will be conflict in the northern towns where there is a poor white ghetto right next to a poor asian ghetto.

What would happen if instead of two ghettos the houses were all intermingled?

Inter marriage is a good thing imho .. for example in a small way ..

I am half english and half scottish.
My partner is half spanish and half catalan.
Our sprog is therefore a quarter english, a quarter scottish, quarter spanish, quarter catalan.
Therefore sprog is a "european".

 

[isitme]

Yes shelfish does go off like billy oh in warmer climbs.

especially in some of the mussel-im countries

 

[Santino]

especially in some of the mussel-im countries

We call it 'Isclam' these days.

 

[Crispy]

Fishtianity, before anyone says it.

 

[Zachor]

Fishtianity, before anyone says it.

C'mon Crispy 'scale' it down

 

[goldenecitrone]

Fishtianity, before anyone says it.

Old Testament Crustaceanism.