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Mother tormented to suicide by teenage gang. UK Police indifferent. Peter Dow cares.

the point being that tragic as the story is, the reason its in a national newspaper is because it hardley ever happens
This level of desperation may be, thankfully, a rarity.

That doesn't mean there aren't a lot more people who suffer in silence albeit to a lesser degree in this frightened fucked up country.

Polariing the debate to either 'Feral Youth' redtop headline bullshit or 'whinging' is not helpful.
 
the point being that tragic as the story is, the reason its in a national newspaper is because it hardley ever happens
People hardly ever kill themselves and their child, true. As Awesome Wells says, this level of desperation is probably a rarity. (Although how many more who aren't so newsworthy kill themselves quietly?) That's beside the point: the police allowed louts to run riot. Not because officers are personally bad, but because of the system successive governments have created.
 
Well there is the hope that some time in opposition might see the death of 'new' labour and a return to the traditional labour values.

You never know

The Labour Party campaigning on "traditional Labour values" hasn't been able to secure an effective majority since 1966 so that way lies political oblivion I imagine.
 
What are these "traditional Labour values" anyway? All Labout have failed to do is run around nationalising anything that's nailed down. They're fanatical supporters of comprehensive education and the public sector.

And, of course, they're very happy not to punish criminals or return discretion to the police. Far from it, they stripped the police of the ability to even charge suspects. I suppose we could see a return to the views of people like Clement Attlee, who voted in favour of hanging in 1948. But I imagine that's not what people had in mind.
 
Overall though it seems to be another example of how a whole series of minor incidents is allowed to develop, with each being treated on it's own, rather than as the latest in an overall series of incidents. This is a MAJOR issue with the police nowadays.
Seen a more detailed report over the weekend. Quite a lengthy statement from the local Superintendent. Sadly it appears my suggestion as to possible fuck up was right ... a whole series of things, dealt with by different officers and different units over a considerable period of time ... and not linked together as a series which needed to be treated as something far more serious than the sum of it's parts.

Serious systemic failure ... and quite possibly individual failure (in failing to make proper background checks on taking on the new reports). There should be an IPCC / other force investigation and discipline (possibly criminal action for malfeasance in public office if gross misconduct is proven). :( :(
 
If you have fire brigade policing then tragedies like this are inevitable. However good individual officers are they can't compensate for a broken system. Broken because it makes officers remote, and no one officer knows the complete picture. This is exactly the sort of thing a patrolling constable would have nipped in the bud right at the start.

What would have happened if they'd got some of the miscreants to court? An ASBO? They laugh at it. Community service? Ditto. If by some miracle you got a magistrate to lock a few of them up, they'd soon be back out again, undeterred and unrepentant, and determined to make the woman pay for the unforgivable sin of standing up to them.

All the IPCC investigations in the world won't solve that.
 
It would be a whitewash anyway. It allways is.
Don't be so sure. This story is generating a lot of anger, and it's quite possible that, to diffuse it, a few unfortunate officers will be hung out to dry.

It'll solve nothing, of course, as the entire system is rotten. Sacrificing individual officers will allow the system itself to remain unchanged. It can only be put right when those in power change their minds. This is virtually impossible. In which case, the only answer is to change those in power. Yet many who are enraged by this story don't make the connection and will continue to vote Labour or Tory out of tribal loyalty.
 
This is exactly the sort of thing a patrolling constable would have nipped in the bud right at the start.
Are you sure you're not Peter Hitchens? This is the sort of simplistic drivel he trots out all the time.

What on earth makes you think "patrolling constables" only ever patrol the same streets?

Neighbourhood policing teams (Safer Neighbourhood Teams in the Met) have way more local focus and responsibility than ever before.

All the IPCC investigations in the world won't solve that.
Oh right. Let's just give up then unless they give us Dixon of Dock Green back, along with the power to clip kids round the ear'ole and fit people up without needing to worry about meddlesome rules like those in PACE ... :rolleyes:
 
This level of desperation may be, thankfully, a rarity.

That doesn't mean there aren't a lot more people who suffer in silence albeit to a lesser degree in this frightened fucked up country.

Polariing the debate to either 'Feral Youth' redtop headline bullshit or 'whinging' is not helpful.

fair enough, but all the calls of this countries going to the dogs etc etc when it actual fact humans being cunts to each has been going on forever only serves to highten the level of fear, which imo, is one of the fundamental forces that has stopped us from going its fuckin up this capitalist shit, lets change it

people are terrified and fear, once unleashed, will prowl around searching for more things to be scared of, which the media duly provides and we lap up

none of which is actually that relevant to the op, its just something ive been thinking about a lot lately :)
 
Are you sure you're not Peter Hitchens? This is the sort of simplistic drivel he trots out all the time.
Much as I'd enjoy being paid a salary for giving my POV, afraid not. Mr Hitchens isn't the only one who sees the merits in a beat system.
What on earth makes you think "patrolling constables" only ever patrol the same streets?
I don't, since the beat system hasn't existed for 40-odd years. Do you think officers based in a local station, who knew their area well, would have let this tragic case escalate anywhere close to the victim's suicide?
Neighbourhood policing teams (Safer Neighbourhood Teams in the Met) have way more local focus and responsibility than ever before.
Perhaps they do. Unfortunately they're not universal in the way a beat system was.
Oh right. Let's just give up then unless they give us Dixon of Dock Green back, along with the power to clip kids round the ear'ole and fit people up without needing to worry about meddlesome rules like those in PACE ... :rolleyes:
This is a whopping great straw man, since I never suggested police be given a license to dish out common assault and to fit suspects up. I see no PACE safeguard that couldn't be offered in a simplified form, and many PACE attacks on liberty that should be removed.
 
that would need an awful lot more cops.
trouble is police numbers have gone up but so has the jobs there called onto to do hence bog standard policing has been robbed of numbers to fill all the specialist tasks
 
wow im amazed

such a liberal board and yet so many people are advocating for vigilante groups and the compulsory seizure of children into state care... removal of statutory guidance that was put in place to stop police officers "using individual discretion" and busting people based on their own prejudices and an end to the culture of forgiveness, second chances and rehabilitation

sorry guys, but the reason we are so fucked up now is because of the anti-establishment, socialist worker, left wing do gooding mentalities of the 70's


we cant have our cake and eat it, do we want coppers on the streets enforcing laws... clipping kids behind their ears....... busting people cause they happen to be in an area of high crime at a time when the highest amount of crime is commited...... do we want existing laws to be enforced even when we dont agree with them (thinking of the fuss a bout the "rave in a exeter field" a few months back

personally i agree, i think that country is going to the dogs with the police being expected to fight crime whilst treating those that nick as "customers" and with strict instructions not to fight back. yet when the police do fight back (g20 stuff) to enforce the law.. people kick up shouting police state and lack of freedoms

we cant have it both ways

So we can't do anything unless we want to see repressive tactics - Don't be so silly.
 
that would need an awful lot more cops.
I don't think it would. We have more police than we've ever had, and certainly more than we had when the beat system was abolished. Doesn't matter how many police we have if they're doing the wrong thing.
trouble is police numbers have gone up but so has the jobs there called onto to do hence bog standard policing has been robbed of numbers to fill all the specialist tasks
The special tasks would have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis, but I'm doubtful if a patrolling constable couldn't do much good by his very presence.

In this tragic case, he or she would have soon got to know the repeat offenders by name, and could drag them home to their parents early on. (And no, not with a "clip around the ear", a cliche that distracts from the issue.) Given discretion over who gets arrested, the officer would easily defeat the nasty criminal tactic of using false accusations to scare victims into silence.

Either the children's parents would stop the misbehaviour, or the authorities would have to step in. Either way, no one would be driven to suicide and killing, and no remote commanders would palm victims off with excuses of "lack of resources", or the like.
 
i notice lots of people start to care now there is nothing left to do but complain
I've been going on about this sort of thing for years, and have asked MPs about it. They just ignore me and launch into tub-tumping rhetoric about "getting tough on crime" and "winning the war on anti-social behaviour", backed by a barrage of dubious and largely irrelevant statistics.
 
I don't, since the beat system hasn't existed for 40-odd years.
I must have imagined being assigned to beats in the early 80s then ... :rolleyes:

Do you think officers based in a local station, who knew their area well, would have let this tragic case escalate anywhere close to the victim's suicide?
They obviously fucking did ... there will be a neighbourhood policing team in the relevant location. There is everywhere in the UK. I note you say they are not universal. Please link to the evidence you have for that assertion.
 
So we can't do anything unless we want to see repressive tactics - Don't be so silly.
One thing you can't have (unless you want to piss millions down the pan every day) is "bobbies on the beat" and no stop / search or stop / account - there'd be absolutely no point in them at all if they didn't do anything.

You cannot simultaneously whinge about the police doing things and about them not doing stuff ... but the fucking media (and loads on here) seem to believe that you can ... :rolleyes:
 
that would need an awful lot more cops.
trouble is police numbers have gone up but so has the jobs there called onto to do hence bog standard policing has been robbed of numbers to fill all the specialist tasks

like in the nhs, police numbers and nursing numbers have increased over the years, but do to the governments obsession with targets, paperwork has increased exponentially. reports suggest police officer spends 55% of his/her time doing paperwork.

in my life, an assessment that would take me 2 hours to do 7 years ago, now takes me nearly a full day.

in addition regards police, to meet targets, its very tempting to "solve" easy crimes (busting hippies ofr dope at festies anyone?)..... this sort of crime (antisocial and harassment amongst others) isnt solved easily, if it requires 'solving' at all. like much in life, you cannot evidence that what you have prevented from occurring.

So we can't do anything unless we want to see repressive tactics - Don't be so silly.

no, but the balance has shifted too far. we've seen on here how people are fearful of being arrested for doing their duty under CJA of preventing crime, and the common law "expectation" of using reasonable force to do so

persoanlly i like the 'texas model'.... someone breaks into your home.. you shoot them.. you get a civil award... cuts down on re-offending rates too :p
 
Given discretion over who gets arrested, the officer would easily defeat the nasty criminal tactic of using false accusations to scare victims into silence.
(a) the police constable still has absolute discretion in the exercise of their powers.

(b) are you really suggesting that police should choose who to arrest or not based on, well, whether they are "like them", say (i.e. primarily white, middle-class (well, aspiring), heterosexual, "hard-working families") ... :confused:
 
(a) the police constable still has absolute discretion in the exercise of their powers.

(b) are you really suggesting that police should choose who to arrest or not based on, well, whether they are "like them", say (i.e. primarily white, middle-class (well, aspiring), heterosexual, "hard-working families") ... :confused:
they could maybe arrest someone after 10 incidents or however many phone calls there were perhaps??? show a bit of an interest like???
 
... but do to the governments obsession with targets
It's the people who vote for ever more performance management to prevent their tax pounds being wasted ... perhaps the voters need to tell (all) the political parties we've had enough of performance managemnt - it's shite.

... someone breaks into your home.. you shoot them.. you get a civil award... cuts down on re-offending rates too :p
Until it's not a burglar ... that law is US fuckwittedness of the first order.
 
they could maybe arrest someone after 10 incidents or however many phone calls there were perhaps??? show a bit of an interest like???
If you actually read the thread rather than simply wading in and taking a post out of the context of the discussion it was part of, you'd see that that is exactly what I have been saying should have fucking happened from the start ... :rolleyes:
 
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