more lies about jean charles

[Donna Ferentes]

I have to say, if armed officers came on to a carriage where I was sitting and gestured at me, I'd move forward. I've move forward because I'd reckon that was precisely what they wanted me to do.

 

[bluestreak]

You can't, unless a media outlet chooses to release it. I guess you could commission a transcript of the trial as a member of the public ... if you've got a few grand to spare.

So how do you know what the BBC isn't writing?

 

[detective-boy]

Be honest for once DB....

I am. Having been in the position of pointing a gun at someone I know that you have a split second and what is already in your head is a huge part of how you interpret what then happens ... and unlike a gunman (where you can be pretty sure you are safe until something is pointed at you), any movement may lead to a suicide bomber detonating their IED. If I put myself in the position of the armed officers, with what they had been told in my head, and the subject had then stood up and come towards me (complicated by the surveillance officer suddenly grabbing him, raising the possibility that they (who knew more cos they'd been observing for some time) had seen some other move towards detonation), I may well have made the same mistake myself.

(And I doubt Ron Thwaites will have any trouble sleeping, knowing some of the psychos he's got off over the years!!)

 

[bluestreak]

I have to say, if armed officers came on to a carriage where I was sitting and gestured at me, I'd move forward. I've move forward because I'd reckon that was precisely what they wanted me to do.

BANG! wrong move you lose.

 

[detective-boy]

Because there is a reasonable suspicion, if you will, that the explanation is on the post hoc side.

Why? Why is it not entirely consistent with a totally genuine explanation of what the officer's perception was at the time?

 

[tarannau]

Donna deserved it. Aggressive movement obviously.

Some arse-covering you expect, but this is an insulting rewrite of history that slurs an innocent ma;'s memory. No wonder his family are outraged

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Bear in mind that this was in Stockwell/Brixton, where us mixed race types are far from a minority. I've said it before and I'll say it agian - within 10 minutes of waiting outside Brixton tube and you'd find at least 75 people who looked more like JCDM than Osman.

Don't tell this chap, he'll never believe you...

 

[untethered]

If Cressida Dick, a supposed DAC, can't honestly see the difference then she's traipsing dangerously close to 'all them darkies look the same' territory. Insultingly so in fact.

Oh gosh! Is that an allegation of racism? Whatever next?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Why is it not entirely consistent with a totally genuine explanation of what the officer's perception was at the time?

Because there's nothing exceptional being described, that's why.

 

[detective-boy]

...or with the power to order their use.

For the millionth fucking time ... NO ONE HAS THE POWER TO ORDER ANOTHER OFFICER TO SHOOT, IT IS ENTIRELY A PERSONAL DECISION. And no-one "ordered" it in this case, the decision was made by the officer pulling the trigger.

 

[tarannau]

Why? Why is it not entirely consistent with a totally genuine explanation of what the officer's perception was at the time?

So what Dick's excuse for claiming that they both look 'extraordinarily' alike in the cold light of day and after the event. They simply don't do they?

 

[untethered]

I have to say, if armed officers came on to a carriage where I was sitting and gestured at me, I'd move forward. I've move forward because I'd reckon that was precisely what they wanted me to do.

Let us all hope that such a circumstance never comes to pass.

 

[detective-boy]

A counsel shoudl represent their clients effectively and honestly.

Have you EVER watched defence counsel (let alone bent defence counsel) at work?

As I have already posted, however, I do not think the police should have allowed their counsel to operate in this manner.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

For the millionth fucking time ... NO ONE HAS THE POWER TO ORDER ANOTHER OFFICER TO SHOOT, IT IS ENTIRELY A PERSONAL DECISION. And no-one "ordered" it in this case, the decision was made by the officer pulling the trigger.

I thank the gentleman for the correction. Perhaps I can rephrase it then. "With the power to send in armed officers into a situation where they are well aware the use of guns is highly likely".

 

[bluestreak]

and this line makes me sick "may have failed to comply with officers who challenged him because he thought he had drugs in his pocket "

that's providing a retro-fitted explanation straight away. why not say he may have suddenly thought that the police were student pranksters and he was about to have a word. or that he has a fetish for body armour and wanted to hug them. It's a bullshit excuse designed to imply that he was criminal and acted suspiciously. But have we been told what normal behaviour was. Man, I wish I could see that fucking video. I mean, I don't want to, but at least them I could judge for myself.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Let us all hope that such a circumstance never comes to pass.

But it did, and the bloke was killed. For doing nothing exceptional, which we are being invited to accept was reason for the trigger to be pulled.

 

[untethered]

It's a bullshit excuse designed to imply that he was criminal and acted suspiciously.

But he did use cocaine, didn't he?

Not, I hasten to add, that this implies he in any way "deserved to die".

 

[detective-boy]

... there was a positive attempt to do things that should not have been done (re: logbooks, photos, briefings etc).

The IPCC found no evidence of any improper change of logbook entry. It's in their report. The photos were not presented as evidence of similarity, only as an aid to understanding the officers proposition that the two looked similar (and everyone has studiously avoided my point that the officers were comparing a photo (of unknown accuracy, age, etc.) with a live person at a distance and, in any event, they did NOT conclude they were the same, they simply concluded that they could not be SURE that they were not, an entirely different proposition).

 

[Donna Ferentes]

But he did use cocaine, didn't he?

What conclusion are you saying it is valid to draw, and what inference are you saying it is valid to draw, from that fact?

 

[tarannau]

Oh gosh! Is that an allegation of racism? Whatever next?

No, it's a acknowledgement that the supposed 'likeness' between the two has been vastly infated.

I can almost excuse the officers on the scene at the time for a panicked judgement, but for Dick to claim that they're so similar afterwards just makes a insulting mockery of it all.

 

[untethered]

But it did, and the bloke was killed. For doing nothing exceptional, which we are being invited to accept was reason for the trigger to be pulled.

These are very difficult situations. We all want the public to be safe and greatly regret what happened to Mr de Menezes. You are right that you or I could be the next victim of a mistaken shooting by the police.

However, these things do happen and we will always come back ultimately to the necessity for armed police being deployed in some situations and the inevitability that sometimes they will make the wrong decisions.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

These are very difficult situations. We all want the public to be safe and greatly regret what happened to Mr de Menezes. You are right that you or I could be the next victim of a mistaken shooting by the police.

However, these things do happen and we will always come back ultimately to the necessity for armed police being deployed in some situations and the inevitability that sometimes they will make the wrong decisions.

Well thanks for that waffle which means nothing and addresses nothing.

 

[detective-boy]

I have to say, if armed officers came on to a carriage where I was sitting and gestured at me, I'd move forward. I've move forward because I'd reckon that was precisely what they wanted me to do.

Exactly. Which is why the entire issue needs to be investgated thoroughly with a view to avoiding such misunderstandings in future ... which it won't be if everyone persists in simply shouting "You're all trigger-happy, lying cunts" ... and refusing to accept that there is scope for there having been a genuine mistake.

 

[detective-boy]

So how do you know what the BBC isn't writing?

I don't. The only words I added were in the article you linked to ...

 

[bluestreak]

@ untethered \77 Yes, he appears to have used cocaine at least once, and probably many times. But they didn't know that, and even if he'd been on the beak the night before his behaviour would not have been unusual.

I didn't word that very well though, they were retro-fitting a story that implied he was acting suspiciously because he wasn't sure if he was carrying drugs at the time, i.e. currently commiting a criminal offence.

Except that as any occasional coke user knows, it's very very rare that you don't know where your coke is.

Cocaine use is simply not relevent. It has not be shown that he acted suspiciously because the methods used to define suspicious by the police also include behaviour that quite simply is normal.

 

[detective-boy]

BANG! wrong move you lose.

And, if it was a suicide bomber: "Excuse me sir, but you mind awfully if I just had a quick check that you're not ..."

BANG! wrong move, a hundred people lose.

 

[untethered]

for Dick to claim that they're so similar afterwards just makes a insulting mockery of it all.

Insulting because Ms Dick, in your opinion, is implying that "all them darkies look the same" due to her supposedly racist outlook?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Exactly. Which is why the entire issue needs to be investgated thoroughly with a view to avoiding such misunderstandings in future ... which it won't be if everyone persists in simply shouting "You're all trigger-happy, lying cunts" ... and refusing to accept that there is scope for there having been a genuine mistake.

I don't see anything at all about the police response, immediately afterwards or subsequently, which suggests that this is likely to happen.

 

[sleaterkinney]

Man, I wish I could see that fucking video. I mean, I don't want to, but at least them I could judge for myself.

And what do you know, the cameras on the platform and in the carraige weren't working...

 

[Donna Ferentes]

And, if it was a suicide bomber: "Excuse me sir, but you mind awfully if I just had a quick check that you're not ..."

BANG! wrong move, a hundred people lose.

Except on that logic you have to shoot every suspect dead. That's not even a reductio ad absurdam, that's straightforward. You have to.