More false flag ideas from Cheney to provoke Iran

[Barking_Mad]

And if you're expressing wild surprise that governments sometimes consider lying and manufacturing situations to exploit to their own advantage, you're more naive than I thought.

you really do have all the bases 'covered' on this, dont you?



Even when something malicious and machevellian goes on, anyone pointing it out is just "naive".

The next time you post a thread and state your shock and horror at something, ill try and be the first to remind you how "naive" you are at being surprised/angry at it.

 

[elbows]

Indeed, all that stuff proves is that the state was trying to spin the situation to fit their agenda, which really isnt the same as being evidence that they were responsible for the anthrax.

 

[fela fan]

Meanwhile, I'll wait for all the evidence and analysis to emerge before casting judgement.

A bit of a dull and slow moving process perhaps, but then finding the truth often is.

And if you're expressing wild surprise that governments sometimes consider lying and manufacturing situations to exploit to their own advantage, you're more naive than I thought.

Ahh, a patient methodical truth seeker in our midst. Or should i say troofseeker?

Can you furnish the forum with proof and evidence that governments lie and manufacture situations?

 

[editor]

Can you furnish the forum with proof and evidence that governments lie and manufacture situations?

You need proof that governments lie?

Good grief. You truly must be an exceptionally ignorant eejit. I suggest a good spell in a library, but stay away from those loon websites, mind, as they'll fill your head with silly gas.

 

[fela fan]

Indeed, all that stuff proves is that the state was trying to spin the situation to fit their agenda, which really isnt the same as being evidence that they were responsible for the anthrax.

No, the man who did that has just killed himself conveniently before his trial, in a sort of 'a la david kellyesque' manner.

Not the government, no way sir!

 

[elbows]

Can you furnish the forum with proof and evidence that governments lie and manufacture situations?

Well our forms of government tend to leave a very long papertrail. Sometimes this emerges into public, and would provide ample proof of these phenomenon.

Thats the sort of evidence I like, not people speculating over grainy video's.

 

[editor]

The next time you post a thread and state your shock and horror at something, ill try and be the first to remind you how "naive" you are at being surprised/angry at it.

So long as I'm putting forward an exciting 'alternative' theory at the time, feel free, although following people around on to totally unrelated threads to score points can be more than a little tiresome for other readers.

 

[fela fan]

You need proof that governments lie?

Good grief. You truly must be an exceptionally ignorant eejit. I suggest a good spell in a library, but stay away from those loon websites, mind, as they'll fill your head with silly gas.

No, i don't need any evidence, but it was you saying you'd have to wait for evidence, not me.

I haven't got the foggiest what a 'loon' website would look like. I don't have time for such irrelevencies.

 

[elbows]

No, the man who did that has just killed himself conveniently before his trial, in a sort of 'a la david kellyesque' manner.

Not the government, no way sir!

Possible and proven are not the same thing. I like to keep an openmind, and this means resisting forming conclusions. There is no conclusive evidence, things that raise suspicions sure, but nothing that would cause me to bet my life that the state was behind the anthrax. I wouldnt bet my life that they werent behind it either.

 

[Darios]

Have you really got through all these years without knowing what "sources" means in this context? You do realise that everyone else in the class is on the next page, don't you?

Sometimes I wonder why these forums are so negative and then I just have to look at the patronising responses of Editor and mods. Lead from the front chaps!

Well teacher, why don't you educate us all.

"three well-placed but separate sources," followed by "four well-placed and separate sources"

How was a lone nut responsible for this? Even if you fall back to the position that they were simply capitalising on one of their own going crazy, we still have proof positive of a conspiracy to lie outright - and on an issue that we will all live with for the rest of our lives.

 

[editor]

No, the man who did that has just killed himself conveniently before his trial, in a sort of 'a la david kellyesque' manner.

Not the government, no way sir!

Is this the kind of thing that passes for damning proof in your world, then?

 

[Barking_Mad]

.......

The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community

 

[editor]

No, i don't need any evidence

LOL!

I haven't got the foggiest what a 'loon' website would look like. I don't have time for such irrelevencies.

LOL at the bizarre self denial!

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Sometimes I wonder why these forums are so negative and then I just have to look at the patronising responses of Editor and mods. Lead from the front chaps!

Well teacher, why don't you educate us all.



How was a lone nut responsible for this? Even if you fall back to the position that they were simply capitalising on one of their own going crazy, we still have proof positive of a conspiracy to lie outright - and on an issue that we will all live with for the rest of our lives.

You're the one who keeps quoting Greenwald and Hersh and so on. They write endlessly about how all this works, as well as many other people. Why not go and read some archives and stop trying to patronise those who've moved past "but mummy! the politician lied!"?

 

[editor]

Sometimes I wonder why these forums are so negative and then I just have to look at the patronising responses of Editor and mods. Lead from the front chaps!

Well teacher, why don't you educate us all.

And that's not in the slightest, teensiest bit patronising, no?

 

[fela fan]

Is this the kind of thing that passes for damning proof in your world, then?

If it was, then i'd be a stupid man.

But i don't live my life according to the getting of evidence or not getting of it. Instinct is a far safer option.

 

[fela fan]

LOL!
LOL at the bizarre self denial!

All this tells me is that self-denial is part of your life.

I only speak honestly in my life, and on these forums, and i have no time for 'loony' websites. None whatsoever. Or anything that is loony. It's why i don't watch the news on the telly for fear of being exposed to the likes of bush and and all those other madmen.

 

[editor]

But i don't live my life according to the getting of evidence or not getting of it. Instinct is a far safer option.

And your "instinct" on American affairs is based on what, exactly?

When was the last time you were there? How long have you spent in the country?

Or is your "instinct" entirely fuelled by the press?

 

[elbows]

But i don't live my life according to the getting of evidence or not getting of it. Instinct is a far safer option.

Do you really think our beliefs are born of instinct? I tend to believe they are based on experience, which would include first hand and second hand evidence.

Humans are very efficient at pattern recognition, perhaps too good at it for our own good. Which evidence you choose to accept, and which you reject, can have a big impact on belief.

If we never allow events and evidence to challenge our own beliefs, then we run the risk of becoming slaves to our own bias. Am I more comfortable living a life distorted by the lies of my own design than the lies of others? Nope.

 

[fela fan]

And your "instinct" on American affairs is based on what, exactly?

When was the last time you were there? How long have you spent in the country?

Or is your "instinct" entirely fuelled by the press?

You're having a laugh aren't you?

I barely read the press any more. Full of bullshit and western propaganda.

My instincts on that country are based on extensive reading (books, not media crap) and meeting american people.

Could you explain the significance of going to a country leading to more knowledge of that country? Is it that you have been there more times than me means you have more knowledge of its government's machinations?

First you talk of me being in self-delusion, now you assume i get all my info about the US from the press. All you're doing is indicating your own limited thinking.

 

[Barking_Mad]

So long as I'm putting forward an exciting 'alternative' theory at the time, feel free, although following people around on to totally unrelated threads to score points can be more than a little tiresome for other readers.

Yet this thread has nothing to do with 'exciting alternative theories'.....it concerns the comments of Seymour Hersh, a journo well known for his years of well founded assertions about major issues involving the US Government.

It seems even the calls for a 'credible source' on the sticky thread can be ignored?

As for scoring points and following you around, not my style. It was merely rhetorical, to show that if you aren't going to engage in an important subject like this is, and indeed express the view that anyone getting riled about it is simply being "naive", then you shouldn't post anything that angers yourself.

QED.

Alternatively, if you believe its all guff, then don't post. The only reason conspiracy theory threads go on for so many pages is that people keep responding to them and fuelling an argument which you then moan is taking up so many pages.

 

[fela fan]

Do you really think our beliefs are born of instinct? I tend to believe they are based on experience, which would include first hand and second hand evidence.

Humans are very efficient at pattern recognition, perhaps too good at it for our own good. Which evidence you choose to accept, and which you reject, can have a big impact on belief.

If we never allow events and evidence to challenge our own beliefs, then we run the risk of becoming slaves to our own bias. Am I more comfortable living a life distorted by the lies of my own design than the lies of others? Nope.

Experience is the mother of all. Instincts, so necessary for the survival of most of the animal kingdom, are often derided in humans. I think they're an excellent barometer, especially when combined with extensive experience in life.

And one cannot really reject evidence. Evidence is evidence. But it is extremely rare for any of us to get any of it with regards to political bullshit and crimes. Anyone insisting on evidence before they make conclusions is never going to make a conclusion.

 

[elbows]

are for any of us to get any of it with regards to political bullshit and crimes. Anyone insisting on evidence before they make conclusions is never going to make a conclusion.

Depends what sort of conclusion they are trying to reach. Ive seen quite enough evidence to form opinions on whether I think the USAs superpowers have done more harm than good in the world. But that doesnt mean Im going to assume they are responsible for every act of horror that they are accused of.

Is there anything wrong with me concluding that they are capable of such acts, but not concluding that they therefore must have done them, every time?

If I am ever accused of any crimes, I shall want to be tried on the basis of evidence, not opinion that people made for the sake of it. No, I'll take the corrupt rule of law over superstition and mere belief any day of the week thank you very much.

What wrong with being inconclusive anyway?

 

[fela fan]

I don't really understand what your points are elbows. I don't have any clear disagreement with anything you are saying.

 

[Darios]

And that's not in the slightest, teensiest bit patronising, no?

If you can't beat em.....

 

[Darios]

You're the one who keeps quoting Greenwald and Hersh and so on. They write endlessly about how all this works, as well as many other people. Why not go and read some archives and stop trying to patronise those who've moved past "but mummy! the politician lied!"?

Uhhh....what?

The "lone nut" theory purports to give closure on the whole issue. It doesn't give closure at all, especially with regard to the numerous "sources" ABC cited. What's your point caller?

 

[editor]

My instincts on that country are based on extensive reading (books, not media crap) and meeting american people.

So when was the last time you were in the US please?

Personally, I try and hear as many different viewpoints as possible before reaching a conclusion - and that includes both left and right wing media (and even endless loon sites) - yet you seem to be prefer to ignore the all news media and base your "instinct" on, err, the opinion on visiting American tourists.

Sure seems a tad myopic to me. The demographic make up of America is a whole lot bigger than a few well heeled travellers, passing gap year wanderers, student bong-imbibers and sun seekers.

 

[elbows]

don't have any clear disagreement with anything you are saying.

Good, lets have an unclear disagreement then

But seriously, Im just joining in the conversation, stating my opinions, with some of my points growing from my interpretation of what other people have written.

We're all entitled to our opinions. Its when our existing beliefs about a subject are allowed to cloud discussions about the possible facts of a specific event, that you will find me gibbering on in threads like these.

If we were all a good deal less certain of how right we are, these threads would go in totally different direction, but I know thats not gonna happen. Conflict will prevail, oh well

 

[fela fan]

So when was the last time you were in the US please?

Personally, I try and hear as many different viewpoints as possible before reaching a conclusion - and that includes both left and right wing media (and even endless loon sites) - yet you seem to be prefer to ignore the all news media and base your "instinct" on, err, the opinion on visiting American tourists.

Sure seems a tad myopic to me. The demographic make up of America is a whole lot bigger than a few well heeled travellers, passing gap year wanderers, student bong-imbibers and sun seekers.

You are truly unbelievable at times. Do you just read what you want to read and ignore the rest of it?

 

[editor]

You are truly unbelievable at times. Do you just read what you want to read and ignore the rest of it?

Seeing as you've just ignored the same question for two posts in a row, I'll try again. When was the last time you were in America to "meet American people"?