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Monbiot admits that Public Transport isn't the answer.....

aurora green said:
Monbiot is a twat.
What on earth posessed him to move to an inaccesible place. I mean he's not short of a few bob, and could for sure pick and choose where he lives...
A high profile environmentalist such as him should be leading by example.
Hmmm, yeah, he can pick and choose. But given -- according to the article -- that his wife his Welsh, and wants their 14-month-old daughter to grow up a Welsh speaker, I'm not quite sure how that could have been achieved in the environs of Oxford.

Needing to live in a Welsh speaking environment rather limits one's choices to living in Wales, doesn't it?
 
They could play her Super Furry Animals and Gorky's Zygotic Mynci songs to her as she sleeps? :)

With the proposal of greener cars, to play devil's advocate to a certain extent, would this greening not be simply wiped out in a very short space of time by the exponential growth in the sheer numbers of cars on the road? It reminds me a little of Tesco and the ilk's spin saying their stores will be 10% more efficient, neglecting to mention that they'll be twice as many of them. It's important to view the wider and whole total picture with this issue.
 
newbie said:
There's a further percentage available from a simple campaign to make it socially unacceptable to leave engines running while stationary- on the phone, in the shop, reading the paper, etc. Especially coaches.

And buses. Edinburgh's central zone pollution (e.g. the bit where cars are virtually excluded) is failing its EC emissions tests thanks to the NOx laden whiffiness of queues of idling buses.
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Needing to live in a Welsh speaking environment rather limits one's choices to living in Wales, doesn't it?

Not true, if the nipper is to be taught Welsh then they can be taught it at home- anywhere. Loads of French Canadian nippers learn to speak French whilst nurtured at home in otherwise Anglophone locationslike Manitoba. Moving to Wals was purely a personal lifestyle choice, like stuffing his principles (now the book's sold well) and hooning about in his car.
 
I remember a German mate telling me that they expect to turn their engines off if they're in a queue for any length of time, let alone when parked. That was probably 10 years ago. Here there's no such expectation and I don't think there's ever been any sort of campaign about it. So simple, so obvious.
 
aurora green said:
Hmm.. he stuck the knife right into RTS and the direct action movement back in the nineties, so I'm not his greatest fan.
Have you got a link for that?
 
keicar said:
<nods> . My issue is not the fact he has brought a car (a basic Clio is hardly a gas-guzzler), but the fact that in moving he has taken an option not open to 90% of his 'disciples'.
Eh?

So he's worked hard and earnt some money. Now he should only do things his 'disciples' can afford? :rolleyes:


Cobbles said:
Moving to Wals was purely a personal lifestyle choice, like stuffing his principles (now the book's sold well) and hooning about in his car.
Yes it really sounds like he's stuffing his principles. By only using his car when there isn't a realistic alternative, by converting his house to be as green as possible, by becoming self sufficient in fruit and veg.
 
aurora green said:
Hmm.. he stuck the knife right into RTS and the direct action movement back in the nineties, so I'm not his greatest fan.

What he said was (IIRC) that there wasn't always a lot of forethought in the direct action movement, about what they wanted to acheive, and how to acheive it, and that violence tended to fill that gap. Looking at some of the later direct action stuff, I think he may have had a point.
 
Maggot said:
Have you got a link for that?

I suggest you google monbiot and Reclaim the streets, for lots of results...
but here's a quote from indemedia
The most shameful attack on the event came from George Monbiot, another Guardian journalist with 'radical' credentials. In a scurrilous and pompous article 'Streets of Shame' (The Guardian Society 10 May) Monbiot tells us that he now regards RTS as 'incoherent vigilantes' who are a 'threat to the environmental and social justice movements'. Why is this? Monbiot's reasons are quite revealing. 'Non-violent direct action', he tells us, 'is not a direct attempt to change the world through physical action, but a graphic and symbolic means of drawing attention to neglected issues, capturing hearts and minds through political theatre'. Its impact will necessarily be limited, until it becomes part of a 'wider democratic assault' on the policies which gave rise to it. He goes on to say that when 'physical force' is the sole means of preventing something from taking place, political activism is indistinguishable from the actions of Tony Martin (Norfolk farmer found guilty of murder) shooting the burglars in his house. This is all self-serving stuff, which justifies Monbiot writing about the evils of corporate capitalism, without taking effective action to change things, and so avoid putting his own privileged position as a Guardian columnist on the line.
 
untethered said:
It's probably worth mentioning that if public transport isn't the answer, private (motorised) transport is hardly likely to be the answer either, if your question is "how can we be green?"
Ah, but I don't think that has ever featured on Cobbles' list of internal questions...

In fact, I think the only purpose Cobbles can see for a green agenda is to use it as a stick to beat anything he doesn't like with. That's an extremely long list, and seems to vary from week to week, but definitely includes "buses" and "anyone who has less money than me" most of the time :)
 
AnnO'Neemus said:
Hmmm, yeah, he can pick and choose. But given -- according to the article -- that his wife his Welsh, and wants their 14-month-old daughter to grow up a Welsh speaker, I'm not quite sure how that could have been achieved in the environs of Oxford.

Needing to live in a Welsh speaking environment rather limits one's choices to living in Wales, doesn't it?
And particular parts of Wales, at that. While Welsh is compulsory in all English-speaking schools, it's a long way short of bringing someone up English/Welsh bilingual. And - perhaps not coincidentally - the bits of Wales where Welsh is spoken most extensively are the less densely-populated bits, and tend to be in the North. If Monbiot's moving to live somewhere near Machynlleth, he's going to be in a place where buses generally run on a two hour headway (and tend to take circuitious routes!), as will trains from his nearest railway station. Services and resources are miles away, particularly if he's any distance out of Machynlleth.

I live in Pembroke, which is a town that's probably about the size of Machynlleth, though somewhat less isolated. However, if I didn't have a car, the simplest shopping trip would be a nightmare - our local shops aren't particularly well-provided, and only open 9-5.30, so I'd never be able to shop during the week. Getting to work would involve an hour and a quarter's train journey for the 35 mile trip, or a similar time spent on a bus (the train takes a particularly roundabout route from here to Carmarthen). If I missed my train (or it was cancelled, which is a regular occurrence), it'd be a two hour wait to the next one). The doctor's surgery has just been closed and consolidated with all the others in Pembroke/Pembroke Dock, so it's now about two miles away: easy enough on foot if one is healthy, but perhaps not ideal if you're seeing the doctor about an injury or are feeling slightly unwell.

We actually have two cars in this household, which I think is ludicrously profligate, but it is perhaps a measure of how necessary a car is to anyone who lives in a rural area and needs to work. I have thought long and hard about how we could consolidate our car use down to one, but it's simply not possible: unless Ms Pembrokestephen and I start working in the same place, or at least doing regular 9-5 hours, 5 days a week (not a luxury most counsellors enjoy) so that we could do a "work run", the logistics of getting us both to work in a single car are intractable.

So I fully understand George Monbiot's position: it simply isn't possible to live in a rural area like West Wales and rely on public transport.

I am sure there is more, albeit not perhaps classical public transport options, that could be done in rural areas to encourage people to opt out of car ownership, but I also think that the way that car ownership is taxed and managed - big upfront non-usage-dependent costs like road fund licence, insurance, MOT - mitigate against the idea of ownership of a car for very occasional use. I suspect that car club type ideas don't work too well in rural areas, either, because of the relative lack of density of population.

Round here, we need better buses that go from hub to hub more quickly, and don't cost an arm and a leg. Similarly, trains need to be competitive - it is only marginally more expensive, once I've driven the 30 miles to Carmarthen, paid to park, and got on a train (even with my student railcard) to go to university by car than it is by train. Those train (and bus) services need to be reliable - if you're going to run on a two hour headway, then anyone with any kind of choice is not going to tolerate being left at a bus stop for an additional two hours too many times before reaching for the car keys. It's also no use having a train/bus service that starts at 0800 and packs up for the night 12 hours later - which is definitely the case here.
 
pembrokestephen said:
So I fully understand George Monbiot's position: it simply isn't possible to live in a rural area like West Wales and rely on public transport.

I did it myself for a couple of years (near Hay-on-Wye as it happens) but was extremely limiting, involving the use of taxis quite often, partly down to some daft scheduling.

Simple example: bus from Brecon to Hereford ran through my village once a day at about 9:40 in the morning, turned round at the bus station, waited for about 10 minutes and was then the only scheduled service to go back through the village for the rest of the day. If you wanted to spend any time shopping in Hereford, you had then to get a bus to Hay and pick up a taxi for the last few miles. A trip to Brecon required an overnight stay if you were to use the bus alone :confused:

I did end up using my bike a lot, though :)
 
cybertect said:
I did it myself for a couple of years (near Hay-on-Wye as it happens) but was extremely limiting, involving the use of taxis quite often, partly down to some daft scheduling.

Simple example: bus from Brecon to Hereford ran through my village once a day at about 9:40 in the morning, turned round at the bus station, waited for about 10 minutes and was then the only scheduled service to go back through the village for the rest of the day. If you wanted to spend any time shopping in Hereford, you had then to get a bus to Hay and pick up a taxi for the last few miles. A trip to Brecon required an overnight stay if you were to use the bus alone :confused:

I did end up using my bike a lot, though :)
That sounds about par for the course. Good example around here - say you want to go from Lampeter to Shrewsbury. You can get an X41 bus from Lampeter (a major base of the University of Wales) to Aberystwyth, runs every 2 hours. An hour and a half later (remember, this is the express bus, making a 40 mile journey), it arrives in Aber - get this - seven minutes after the train to Shrewsbury leaves. Fine, you think, I'll get the next one. That'll be seven minutes short of two hours' wait, then. If you get the bus going the other way, you'll get a better connection at Carmarthen. Just as well, really, because you're now going to spend the next two hours on a train travelling in completely the opposite direction to where you want to go before the train eventually starts heading North at Newport, depositing you at Shrewsbury some 4 hours (twice the train journey from Aberystwyth) after leaving Carmarthen, let alone Lampeter.

And that is not a remarkable exception - as your example illustrates - but a standard and usual part of public transport in Wales (and, for all I know, rural Great Britain in general).

They don't have to build new roads or railway lines, or upgrade trains to sort out this kind of issue - it'd cost virtually nothing to set timetables up so that transport systems interacted. But they can't. What hope is there for the rest of the public transport system if something as patently obvious as this can't be dealt with?
 
pembrokestephen said:
They don't have to build new roads or railway lines, or upgrade trains to sort out this kind of issue - it'd cost virtually nothing to set timetables up so that transport systems interacted. But they can't. What hope is there for the rest of the public transport system if something as patently obvious as this can't be dealt with?

They could do it of course, just they don't.
Due to privatisation, disjointedness of providers, the british dislike of planning anything and plain bloody stupidity.
 
Pembrokestephen - yes it's pretty clear that living in rural Wales without a car is well nigh impossible.

I went to visit friends who live just outside Pwllheli recently, which itself DOES have a train station, but it would take 7 hours to get there from London, which is a bit crazy. So I booked a train to Bangor, roughly 3 hours, great :) But a bit of research revealed that there were no buses to Pwllheli from Bangor at all. Very surprising, considering the proximity of the two places.

Anyway - I chatted to my mates about this, and they said they didn't know anyone who didn't have a car, except people who literally never leave the town at all.

I think this eco-fascism that you get in the green movement from some quarters can be quite achingly hypocritical, and often comes from people who don't actually live in the real world themselves....
 
han said:
I think this eco-fascism that you get in the green movement from some quarters can be quite achingly hypocritical, and often comes from people who don't actually live in the real world themselves....


Who are these eco fascists? Where do they exist? Do they really exist? Or is it just a phrase made up by the daily Mail, I wonder...?
 
aurora green said:
Who are these eco fascists?

An "eco-fascist" is anyone who suggests, however meekly, to the likes of Cobbles that their petrol addiction might not be the best thing ever.
 
han said:
But a bit of research revealed that there were no buses to Pwllheli from Bangor at all. Very surprising, considering the proximity of the two places.

Less than a minute of clicking on Traveline and the picture is somewhat different. Weekdays an hourly service departing Pwhelli getting into Bangor an hour and fifteen minutes later. You have to change at Caernarfon and the change is co-ordinted.
 
Cobbles said:
Mr Monbiot buys a car - http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/features/article1870293.ece

A Prius perchance? - no - a bog standard diesel Clio (presumably saving the planet was less important than saving a few quid).

"His move from Oxford to rural Wales with his family in January meant a change of lifestyle, and he discovered he needed personal transport."

“I spoke at the Hay literary festival the other day and we worked out that the only way to get there without spending an entire day travelling was to take the car."

Ah yes - personal convenience, so much more important that greenness.

"Monbiot admits he is open to charges of hypocrisy" - heavens forfend.......

What next? - presumably a 4x4 "because the roads in Wales are muddy" or some such twaddle. Welcome back to the real world Mr. M.


To be fair Public Transport in the Countryside is piss poor, everybody knows this.
Its not like Monbiot has bought a petrol guzzling car is, he has bought a lil diesel car that probably does 40 odd miles to the gallon.

So I take then if you have the gall to post a thread like this that you are doing much more than Monbiot to help reduce global pollution/warming.
 
aurora green said:
Who are these eco fascists? Where do they exist? Do they really exist? Or is it just a phrase made up by the daily Mail, I wonder...?

Well cobbles and all do strike me as a bit fascist like - telling people where they can and can't live. I don't know, weren't like that when i were a young un.
 
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