Monbiot admits that Public Transport isn't the answer.....

[two sheds]

Hmm.. he stuck the knife right into RTS and the direct action movement back in the nineties, so I'm not his greatest fan.

Surely if "all environmentalists should just do the world a favour, and top themselves right away...", then that should *make* you his greatest fan.

 

[keicar]

When TfL first started looking at Emissions Induced Charging there were only 8 cars in Bands A-B to look at, now there's over 30

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/information/how-to-use-the-data-tables.asp#petrol Everything on these two lists, is basically similar to the prius for emissions, including George's car. I agree the diesel would proberbly do better MPG on rural roads. There is a version of the Megane too, if you need something bigger.

We're predicting a 30% parc in London by 2015.

I unnderstand these vehicles are going to be free from sometime soon, aren't they?

What does parc mean?

 

[aurora green]

Surely if "all environmentalists should just do the world a favour, and top themselves right away...", then that should *make* you his greatest fan.

yeah mate, and you are "a spongecake"

 

[han]

What a delightfully Women's Institute-esque insult!

 

[aurora green]

What a delightfully Women's Institute-esque insult!

Well it's by his own admission.

 

[two sheds]

Well it's by his own admission.

A translation of JFK's 'Ich bin ein Berliner', although on reflection in my case 'I am a doughnut' might have been better.

 

[Cobbles]

Monbiot is a twat.
What on earth posessed him to move to an inaccesible place. I mean he's not short of a few bob, and could for sure pick and choose where he lives...
A high profile environmentalist such as him should be leading by example.

Exactly - just like Al Gore with his "green" mansion ("carbon neutral" 'cause he pays somene to plant weed or two somewhere to "offset" his 4 figure monthly leccy bill".

It's probably not a veg.patch Mr. Monbiot's digging but a swimming pool like Gore's.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

What on earth posessed him to move to an inaccesible place. I mean he's not short of a few bob, and could for sure pick and choose where he lives...
A high profile environmentalist such as him should be leading by example.

Actually that's a fair point. Fair enough about his wife wanting the kids to be brought up in Wales but it's not like they couldn't have lived in the city...

 

[Belushi]

It'd be interesting to know whether the average rural lifestyle is more or less environmentally sound than the average urban lifestyle, taking everything into consideration.

Is cramming everyone together more or less efficient?

Theres economies of scale in getting goods and services to people, and public transport networks better.

My old man lives in rural wales and would be fucked without a car, I live in London and dont need one so dont have one.

 

[han]

Actually that's a fair point. Fair enough about his wife wanting the kids to be brought up in Wales but it's not like they couldn't have lived in the city...

Come on - do you really think that the necessity of having 'occasional use of a car' means that green-minded people should only live in cities?

 

[keicar]

Actually that's a fair point. Fair enough about his wife wanting the kids to be brought up in Wales but it's not like they couldn't have lived in the city...

Not just about car use but flight from the city to the countryside has been bad for Britain generally IMHO. With the obvious exeception of London, our cities have been shamefully neglected through most of the 20th Century as people have moved to ever more land greedy housing systems.

For all their faults, the present government do seem to have moved things back the other way a little.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

Come on - do you really think that the necessity of having 'occasional use of a car' means that green-minded people should only live in cities?

I never said they should only live in cities. Just that he, unlike me or most people, has a great deal more freedom to decide where he lives and in what form.

 

[editor]

Monbiot admits that Public Transport isn't the answer.....

.. in the remotest parts of deepest rural Wales.

 

[keicar]

I never said they should only live in cities. Just that he, unlike me or most people, has a great deal more freedom to decide where he lives and in what form.

<nods> . My issue is not the fact he has brought a car (a basic Clio is hardly a gas-guzzler), but the fact that in moving he has taken an option not open to 90% of his 'disciples'.

I'm sure a lot of lower income city dwellers would love to able to afford to move to the countryside, whether to grow vegetables and speak Welsh or more likely because they are in crap housing or in fear of crime.........

 

[citydreams]

I unnderstand these vehicles are going to be free from sometime soon, aren't they?

We're still looking into it. Ken Livingstone wants to announce it for his 2008 election. There's still a lot of variables to take into account as to whether it is a sound proposal in an environmental sense. It's a bit ironic that AEA (atomic energy association) are doing the impact assessment, but we're actually feeding them with the data and then they present it with authority.

What does parc mean?

parc is the jargon used to measure the distribution of vehicles, ie what percentage of vehicles are of a particular type of the total number.

 

[keicar]

parc is the jargon used to measure the distribution of vehicles, ie what percentage of vehicles are of a particular type of the total number.

Thanks

 

[beeboo]

Theres economies of scale in getting goods and services to people, and public transport networks better.

My old man lives in rural wales and would be fucked without a car, I live in London and dont need one so dont have one.

Having mulled it over, I think it is definitely possible to have a lower environmental impact if you live rurally, if you take advantage of all the possibilities of being self-supporting (growing own food, waste recycling etc), ate local produce, didn't travel that much.

However, if you just shop at Tesco and regularly use a car, you're probably creating a bigger environmental impact than someone in a city who is consuming in the same way (economies of scale and public transport as mentioned).

But then again, I imagine that the culture/lifestyles of cities are more focussed on consumption/consumerism than rural lifestyles, so unless you opt to go against the flow, the average City dweller probably uses more *stuff* than the average country dweller.

 

[Isambard]

There are ways to make more public transport in rural areas.

Postbuses, combined buses with school transport, "wiggle" buses, community transport schemes etc etc.

 

[Belushi]

But then again, I imagine that the culture/lifestyles of cities are more focussed on consumption/consumerism than rural lifestyles, so unless you opt to go against the flow, the average City dweller probably uses more *stuff* than the average country dweller.

Couldn't be further from the truth ime!

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Acceptable to some. They're far and away better on CO2 emissions. They used to fall down on particulate matter pollution (PM10s PM2.5s) though that has improved dramatically with advanced technology in particulate traps. They still fare very badly on NOX, but we're looking at a 70% reduction from todays levels on the introduction of Euro6 legislation (which will apply from 2009 and will enter into force in 2014).

this however all falls down once they cease to be maintained as anyone in india will tell you...

 

[untethered]

It'd be interesting to know whether the average rural lifestyle is more or less environmentally sound than the average urban lifestyle, taking everything into consideration.

Is cramming everyone together more or less efficient?

That's an excellent question.

I suspect the answer is not only "yes", but of course with a population of 60 million in an island the size of Britain, urbanisation is entirely necessary.

Mr Monbiot is not above criticism and his public stance on environmentalism makes him particularly susceptible to lifestyle scrutiny, but I'm quite sure that not only has he thought through the (far from clear-cut) issues but is his own worst critic.

The greenies I know are a pretty neurotic bunch and tend to agonise over the little lifestyle details that wouldn't give anyone else a moments thought.

You know, like having to use the supermarket and then coming home with a carrier bag can plunge some people into a swamp of depression and self-loathing.

 

[untethered]

It's probably worth mentioning that if public transport isn't the answer, private (motorised) transport is hardly likely to be the answer either, if your question is "how can we be green?"

 

[keicar]

It's probably worth mentioning that if public transport isn't the answer, private (motorised) transport is hardly likely to be the answer either, if your question is "how can we be green?"

I would say the question is "We need to travel, how can we do so in a green manner". Public transport can be a small part of the solution, but I doubt it will ever replace more than say 20% of current car journeys even with a massive expansion of bus and rail. Another 5-10% can be walked or biked but the majority of private journeys are going to stay in the car.

So we need to make cars greener.......

 

[two sheds]

So we need to make cars greener.......

The government is listening to your concerns and after consultation with stakeholders and industry bodies will i understand soon be announcing a 'Green your car' initiative with 5% green paint grants up to a maximum of £500.

 

[untethered]

I would say the question is "We need to travel, how can we do so in a green manner". Public transport can be a small part of the solution, but I doubt it will ever replace more than say 20% of current car journeys even with a massive expansion of bus and rail. Another 5-10% can be walked or biked but the majority of private journeys are going to stay in the car.

So we need to make cars greener.......

I wouldn't argue against making cars greener but that is always going to be a very relative thing.

Your statement presupposes current travel patterns. Unfortunately, various factors are likely to see an increased demand for travel and the means of transport to enable it. But it doesn't have to be that way.

With both personal choice and restraint combined with intelligent planning, we can reduce the demand for travel.

I know plenty of people whose car use is either zero or below 1000 miles per year. I happen to be one of them.

 

[davesgcr]

The Hereford Hay and Brecon railway ran 3 trains a day in its life from the 1860s to the 1960's

We are just a bit more mobbile now than then - whats wrong with a chip fat fuelled car as a friend of a freind has running in Mid Wales ?

Mind you he gets hassled by the revenue all the time over it !

 

[Gixxer1000]

We're still looking into it. Ken Livingstone wants to announce it for his 2008 election. There's still a lot of variables to take into account as to whether it is a sound proposal in an environmental sense. It's a bit ironic that AEA (atomic energy association) are doing the impact assessment, but we're actually feeding them with the data and then they present it with authority.



parc is the jargon used to measure the distribution of vehicles, ie what percentage of vehicles are of a particular type of the total number.

Genuine question; Do TfL use manufacturers figures, or real life sampling?

Incidentally TfL/ councils could reduce emissions by 30percent by just ensuring peoples tyre pressures were correct.

 

[Gixxer1000]

I wouldn't argue against making cars greener but that is always going to be a very relative thing.

Your statement presupposes current travel patterns. Unfortunately, various factors are likely to see an increased demand for travel and the means of transport to enable it. But it doesn't have to be that way.

With both personal choice and restraint combined with intelligent planning, we can reduce the demand for travel.

I know plenty of people whose car use is either zero or below 1000 miles per year. I happen to be one of them.

Oh no get with the programme please, the whole point about recycling/"green" vehicles (and why big business loves them so much) is that we can keep consuming/using.

 

[newbie]

There's a further percentage available from a simple campaign to make it socially unacceptable to leave engines running while stationary- on the phone, in the shop, reading the paper, etc. Especially coaches.

 

[untethered]

Oh no get with the programme please, the whole point about recycling/"green" vehicles (and why big business loves them so much) is that we can keep consuming/using.

That's very true.

However, much as I would love to rule the world and ban all private motor vehicles tomorrow (neither of these things should surprise anyone) I do realise that in the meantime, such journeys need to be done as greenly as they can be.

So while heading for what ultimately would be a very radical goal, I'm not opposed to useful measures to mitigate the worst effects in the meantime. You do have to be very careful that this doesn't simply encourage people to simply carry on as they've always done, as you say.

If you want to be purist about it, you'll get no-one on board and nothing will change at all.