Modern Malnutrition in the UK

[ViolentPanda]

. Certainly adds value to mung beans ...

Something has to!

 

[SaskiaJayne]

I would agree about the school meals, I recall throughout my schooldays the school dinners wern't that bad, cooked in the kitchen visible from the canteen. I never did develop as taste for convenience food so I suppose it did make a difference. Nowadays healthy eating has to be taught, then it was just eating that was healthy.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well an 8% rise isn't equal to 'gives you diabetes' anyway. But fruit juice is generally high in sugar without the fibre and some of the other good stuff in fresh fruit. It's not as healthy as people used to think.

Well of course it increases the individual risk of diabetes by 8%, not the certainty that you'll get it.
E2A: If it actually increased rates of diabetes by 8% we'd have a world full of fruit and veg-dodgers!

 

[ViolentPanda]

As equationgirl points out it's a self-reported study and doesn't prove causation. People who like sweet fruit juice but don't eat fresh fruit might tend to have a sweet tooth and avoid fresh food generally.

There's also a bit of a problem with "processed" fruit juices (i.e. dilutes from concentrates) containing a bit more sugar than "natural", and the whole issue of "fruit juice drinks".

 

[ViolentPanda]

I think it is entirely right that Stuff-it points this issue up - not just scurvy but rickets is appearing again too.

My mate developed it (as an adult in his 40s) due to poor diet, and the fact that some prescription medication he has to take leaches vit D from his body. Unfortunately the medication in question doesn't have a readily-available analogue with the same primary effects, so he's stuck with the problem.

The lobbyists in the food industry have a long and effective reach and even so-called healthy foods are adulterated (fruit and vegetables). Poverty, along with ubiquitous marketing has eroded the ability of many people to eat a nutritionally sound diet, particularly when issues such as transport and accessibilty are factored in. While Stuff-it did make the post personal, there appears to be an element of incredulity and even a bit of shaming (but I may be being unduly sensitive given my own idleness in reaching for the biscuits rather than taking a pan and vegetable peeler out. Toast definitely counts as a hot meal and I have never fully grown out of a childish hatred of large numbers of veggies.

I absolutely agree with regard to poverty, but would say it's not just financial poverty that's a problem, but also a poverty of choice in some locales. I'm lucky enough to have Brixton market just down the road, plus a discount supermarket that sells reasonably-affordable fruit and veg, but some people aren't, and have no facilities to "grow your own", and as you mention, transportation is a very serious issue, both time and cost-wise.

 

[ViolentPanda]

No I am not saying it doesn't.
I am just surprised what people can survive on reasonably healthily is all.

We originally evolved to subsist on a very limited diet, so surviving and even thriving on the sort of diet the lad ate isn't unfeasible. It was broad enough to provide reasonably-balanced nutrition. If he'd been only eating something like rice, then that would be a lot more damaging with regard to malnutrition.

 

[ViolentPanda]

So does most bread, even fresh bread from a bakery

All strong white flour/white bread flour is still "fortified" with vitamin C and calcium in many countries, and wholemeal flour doesn't require it. When I used to work in a bakery (an evening job after school) all the white bread flour sacks were marked as "fortified with vitamins and minerals". Back then even the soft white flour (baking flour, for cakes, pastries etc) was also fortified. it's a brilliantly-simple way of ensuring that a majority of your populace doesn't have a plethora of mental and physical developmental disorders.

 

[shygirl]

Do you realise how many of us are, or have been, extremely hard up for several years without getting scurvy?

Also, if this is scurvy, it's been going on, undiagnosed for well over a year while the OP has seen several doctors more than once, and been diagnosed (and treated) for far worse things.

BTW this is urban, not a love-in. If you've got a problem with somebody, say it directly, don't hint.

Er, that's a bit blunt Greebo. I couldn't be bothered going back to see who made the comments, and I wouldn't usually want to call out posters by name in any case.
It read as if there's been some history with this poster, 'cos usually, posters are quite sympathetic to other posters' plights.

I'm no expert on scurvy, but if this person has had a consistently poor-(ish) diet for many years, and an inadequate vit c intake, the cumulative effect could result in scurvy. None of us share the same constitution and are all of us affected differently by poor nutrition, particularly if its a generational thing as well, i.e. parents not having had good diet, poor diet as a child, etc. I'm not arguing that stuff-it does have scurvy one way or the other, but comparing him to others isn't exactly a scientific approach.

It is also quite easy for a GP to have missed a complaint if the patient does not refer s/he to it.

Stuff-it, could it be eczema or psoriasis that you have?

 

[Manter]

Er, that's a bit blunt Greebo. I couldn't be bothered going back to see who made the comments, and I wouldn't usually want to call out posters by name in any case.
It read as if there's been some history with this poster, 'cos usually, posters are quite sympathetic to other posters' plights.

I'm no expert on scurvy, but if this person has had a consistently poor-(ish) diet for many years, and an inadequate vit c intake, the cumulative effect could result in scurvy. None of us share the same constitution and are all of us affected differently by poor nutrition, particularly if its a generational thing as well, i.e. parents not having had good diet, poor diet as a child, etc. I'm not arguing that stuff-it does have scurvy one way or the other, but comparing him to others isn't exactly a scientific approach.

It is also quite easy for a GP to have missed a complaint if the patient does not refer s/he to it.

Stuff-it, could it be eczema or psoriasis that you have?

Quick clarification on scurvy- vitamin C isn't stored by the body, so you don't end up with a cumulative deficit. You have to have a significant deficit over an extended period (and usually other contributing factors eg pregnancy, long term drug dependency, some sorts of chemotherapy) to get scurvy: and treatment starts to take effect within 48 hours. It's very rare, and you have to try quite hard to get it.... You can have very low levels of vitamin C without developing Scurvy- it is an extreme.

 

[equationgirl]

so, what do you generally eat? like, what have you eaten over the past week or so?

Miss Caphat has a point here - if you generally have to avoid food banks because of your sulphite intolerance, what do you usually eat and what you eaten over the last few weeks?

 

[Miss Caphat]

Miss Caphat has a point here - if you generally have to avoid food banks because of your sulphite intolerance, what do you usually eat and what you eaten over the last few weeks?

I was really surprised at how many foods are on that list. stuff_it you might consider just putting up with the affects of sulfite if your symptoms aren't very severe, for the sake of your overall health and the fact that you don't have a huge amount of choice as far as food selecting goes?

 

[Orang Utan]

I don't get the hostility here.

 

[Greebo]

shygirl
1) Stuff_it is female, not male
2) This isn't in the knobbing and sobbing section, and AFAIK it wasn't started as a support thread, but as a more generalised thing about "if I can get scurvy and not have it noticed the country's going to the dogs".
3) You think I'm blunt? I think you're passive aggressive with your insinuations about bullying which you can neither be bothered to list nor report. All of us have our own posting styles, I've never claimed to be soft and sweet.

I don't get the hostility here.

I honestly don't see it - this is yet another self-diagnosis (not backed up by seeing a doctor yet) with somewhat overdramatic claims.

But what the hell. Putting this thread on ignore.

 

[campanula]

Putting this thread on ignore.

Sorry to read that, Greebo. In fairness, I own up to also commenting on what did seem like a harsh response (and given the general kindness which permeates Urban (along with the snark and shite of course), I was also a tad surprised...but it is much clearer to me that, as ever on here, where relationships have played out over years, there is some history (the suggestion of repeat self-diagnosis) so I also intend to tread a little carefully. I also prefer being blunt to hinting and implying.

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

My mate developed it (as an adult in his 40s) due to poor diet, and the fact that some prescription medication he has to take leaches vit D from his body. Unfortunately the medication in question doesn't have a readily-available analogue with the same primary effects, so he's stuck with the problem.

Can he not take calcitriol?

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

stuff_it a lot of food banks do give out fresh produce, maybe you could ring some and ask if they do cater for people with your allergies and provide fresh produce.

 

[gentlegreen]

I'm struggling to find any scientific references to sulphite intolerance.
How was it diagnosed ?
Or was it diagnosed the same way as the scurvy ?
Surely we're mostly talking about things like preserved dried fruit and removed by cooking ?

 

[Orang Utan]

I've self-diagnosed sulphite intolerance cos it's in wine and wine gives me wine flu. ,

 

[Manter]

I'm struggling to find any scientific references to sulphite intolerance.
How was it diagnosed ?
Or was it diagnosed the same way as the scurvy ?
Surely we're mostly talking about things like preserved dried fruit and removed by cooking ?

It doesn't show up in a standard allergy test: the only way to diagnose is by an exclusion diet followed by a 'food challenge' (which sounds much more exciting than it is) supervised by a clinical immunologist.

It is in a few dried fruits- eg in apricots but not raisins- in packet sauces and gravies, sometimes fruit like grapes is packaged in gas which includes trace sulphites, it's in jelly, almost all beer and wine.... Roasted nuts I think. Tonic water except feverfew. Tinned veg....

Uk law means anything with sulphites in it has to be labelled. Same in the US. And it's different to sulphates, which are removed by cooking- sulphite allergens aren't.

 

[friendofdorothy]

It doesn't show up in a standard allergy test: the only way to diagnose is by an exclusion diet followed by a 'food challenge' (which sounds much more exciting than it is) supervised by a clinical immunologist.

It is in a few dried fruits- eg in apricots but not raisins- in packet sauces and gravies, sometimes fruit like grapes is packaged in gas which includes trace sulphites, it's in jelly, almost all beer and wine.... Roasted nuts I think. Tonic water except feverfew. Tinned veg....

Uk law means anything with sulphites in it has to be labelled. Same in the US. And it's different to sulphates, which are removed by cooking- sulphite allergens aren't.

I'm allergic to sulphur dioxide*, E220, so some dried fruit, white wines and ciders give me asthma attacks.
Most wines seems to contain 'sulphites' these days but doesn't cause me too many problems. Is S02 a sulphite or sulphate?

*Diagnosed by living in a polluted northern town. My Dad also allergic - he was the walking SO2 detector in the chemical factory where he worked.

 

[Manter]

I'm allergic to sulphur dioxide*, E220, so some dried fruit, white wines and ciders give me asthma attacks.
Most wines seems to contain 'sulphites' these days but doesn't cause me too many problems. Is S02 a sulphite or sulphate?

*Diagnosed by living in a polluted northern town. My Dad also allergic - he was the walking SO2 detector in the chemical factory where he worked.

-ite

 

[friendofdorothy]

-ite

Thanks

 

[UnderOpenSky]

Maybe I've missed something, but you can buy veg like carrots very cheaply in Aldi. In fact eating fresh veg is a pretty cheap way to live. Salad potatoes, onions and what ever is discounted. I'm not saying people should have to live so hand to mouth but part of this seams to stem from lack of education which suprised me that you'd self diagnose on this stuff_it.

 

[coley]

I was going to say that! And it's not destroyed by pasteurisation, either.

Nephew no3 lives on toast and marmite with the odd packet of crisps, chips and chicken nuggets also feature, active and healthy.
No 2 son, tetties,chips,marrow fat peas, mars bars and crisps, 6' 3" and in rude health.
I have given up on 'studies'

 

[coley]

I would agree about the school meals, I recall throughout my schooldays the school dinners wern't that bad, cooked in the kitchen visible from the canteen. I never did develop as taste for convenience food so I suppose it did make a difference. Nowadays healthy eating has to be taught, then it was just eating that was healthy.

I loved school dinners but then again I lived in a family where me and my four brothers would fight for the biggest bacon bones after they had been lifted out of the broth.
You look at pictures of bairns starving worldwide and then at our lot pushing away piles of food, including their 'favourites' and think a couple of days starvation wouldn't hurt the little sods!

 

[wiskey]

So stuff_it , how are you feeling? If you've been upping your vitamin C hopefully your symptoms have abated?

 

[ShiftyBagLady]

a couple of days starvation wouldn't hurt the little sods!

It would though, starvation is a nasty thing. Even for supposedly spoilt children...

 

[ViolentPanda]

Can he not take calcitriol?

All the stuff they've tried so far boosts his vit d a bit, but not enough so that the med in question doesn't expel/leach most of it away.
IIRC he already takes calcitriol for his psoriatic arthritis.

 

[coley]

It would though, starvation is a nasty thing. Even for supposedly spoilt children...

Wrong word to use, what I meant is,limit them to a couple of days when the only food available is properly cooked nutritious food with no ket available, they won't eat it? they go hungry.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm struggling to find any scientific references to sulphite intolerance.
How was it diagnosed ?
Or was it diagnosed the same way as the scurvy ?
Surely we're mostly talking about things like preserved dried fruit and removed by cooking ?

Sulphites are more and more widely used in processed foods too, and cooking doesn't remove them.
Also, you won't find a lot of reference material, as it's a fairly new problem in terms of volume of sufferers.