Mmr

[slaar]

I cannot possibly see what is 'mentalist' about a site such as www.vaccinationdebate.com

I don't have the time or energy to undertake a forensic analysis, but this caught my eye:

WHY VACCINES ARE HARMFUL

The United States legal standard applied to vaccines defines them as "unavoidably unsafe products that are quite incapable of being made safe for their intended and ordinary use". The reason why vaccines are unsafe, or in other words harmful, is because they are made up of chemicals and other elements that are poisonous to the body.

That's clearly a ludicrous mis-interpretation of the legal standard. Vaccines are potentially dangerous because they can provoke an immuno response which is exactly the purpose they are intended for. It's got absolutely nothing to do with other chemicals in vaccines, for which there is no evidence of harmful effects, it's simply why people who are ill or have otherwise suppressed immune systems can't and are not given active vaccines.

 

[slaar]

Everyone has different ideas about what is good for people's health. In the case of your child's health, you have to simply go with your gut feeling and conscience.

For all those arguing with Dr Jazzz, he (if it is a he, I don't know) is merely exercising his right to make a choice and voice and opinion. And unless vaccinations are made compulsory then he's every right to do so.

Whether you're for or against the MMR, the crucial thing is that you do your research beforehand. Like with any decision involving your child's health, don't blindly accept anything anyone tells you. Whether that is Dr Jazzz or your GP. Both are human and have the capacity to make a mistake. Mumps, measles and ruebella can be very dangerous for some people. Similarly (and I'm not necessarily talking about the risk of autisim here) vaccinations can be very dangerous for some people.

While that vaccination is not compulsory then the choice is yours - use it wisely but always go with your instinct, whatever that may be.

This to me is exactly the problem. Where it's a public health issue people shouldn't be allowed to "go with their instincts" over considered and peer-reviewed medical evidence going back decades, particularly when it involves their own, innocent, children.

 

[Jazzz]

I don't have the time or energy to undertake a forensic analysis, but this caught my eye:



That's clearly a ludicrous mis-interpretation of the legal standard. Vaccines are potentially dangerous because they can provoke an immuno response which is exactly the purpose they are intended for. It's got absolutely nothing to do with other chemicals in vaccines, for which there is no evidence of harmful effects, it's simply why people who are ill or have otherwise suppressed immune systems can't and are not given active vaccines.

What kind of nonsense is this? There is plenty of evidence for the harmful effects of the toxic components of vaccines. That is why they are not allowed in tins of baked beans.

What I presume you are saying is that the concentrations are too small to be harmful but I say - in the evidence of proper research to rule it out - that is simply wishful thinking. The research simply isn't being done. Absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence if people aren't looking, and in the absence of studies with control groups they aren't. The hand-waving 'there's no evidence' was the line taken with BSE, it was taken with passive smoking by the tobacco companies, it was taken with nuclear testing, you name it. Displaced burden of proof. Have you not heard of the 'precautionary principle' slaar?

Perhaps you would like to say what you consider the recent rise in autism cases (or ADHD, etc.) is due to? Surely, not environmental factors?

 

[slaar]

If there's no hard evidence either way, Dr Jazz, then it's just speculation. Our bodies encounter all sorts of foreign matter every day, undoubtedly increasingly so since the industrial revolution, but to put it down to vaccines alone, with no evidence, is ridiculous.

I wouldn't particularly care to speculate which of millions of foreign agents, sociological or psychological factors which occur concomitant with industrial and post-industrial life could be responsible for the rise of autism. I certainly wouldn't rule out that vaccines could be responsible for a part of it, just as I wouldn't rule out carbon monoxide from car emissions, tobacco, cheap alcohol, hydroflourocarbons etc, but it's a bit pointless without evidence.

As for the precautionary principle and evidence, if there was obvious evidence then it would most likely have been found by now, there's a lot of scientists out there looking for ways to make a reputation, money and research grants. The fact that it hasn't suggests all the benefits vaccines give us (and we've been over this argument already on this thread, so I'm not rehashing the arguments) outweight the negligible risks.

Now will you answer my question:

I trust you think there is a different trade-off in countries with poor nutrition and health status, and that in that case the chances taken with the vaccine are preferable to dying of Polio, Typhoid or Hepatitis as hundreds of thousands do?

Or do you think the massed ranks of WHO programs and evidence on hundreds of thousands of lives saved without improvement in material conditions is a complete red herring? Because that would be bonkers.

 

[Red Faction]

http://bava.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/50Things.html

not a reliable source. How do they compile the data? Unlike the bmj- they are not a reputed body.
Its bullshit + all the points you quote off it are unsubstantiated.

* Over a period of four years, in the UK, 66% of all measles cases were in vaccinated children.

What does that mean? The comment comes from a bullshit source.
The source says that 33% of kids who got measles weren't immunised.

* In a 1986 measles outbreak in Corpus Christi, Taxas, 99% of the children had been vaccinated.

99% of how many? bullshit source.

* 26% of children rubella-vaccinated developed arthralgia or arthritis. (US Science magazine.)

As compared to how many in the general population?

* Trials on the rubella vaccine, in the USA and Australia, show a fallure rate of between 80 and 93%.

Which rubella vaccine? Any random vaccine? The MMR vaccine? It doesnt say. Its a bullshit source. Something has to be medically proven before it is released to the public. You're full of BULLSHIT

* Dr Glen Dettman found that one third of rheumatoid arthritis sufferers had live rubella viruses in their joints.

Who? 1/3 of how many? So rubella is linked to arthritis? All the more reason to get immunised. Still a bullshit source.

E=CaroleK]
* The Lancet reported that West German authorities had listed 27 neurological reactions to the mumps vaccine, including meningitls, febrile convulsions and epilepsy. [/QUOTE] 27 out of how many?
How many kids were given the mumps vaccine? When was this? Sounds like bullshit to me.
tbh 27/a couple of million isnt bad odds.

* There are 30,000 new cases of epilepsy; 10,000 of which are children, in the UK alone, each year '

What has this got to do with ANYTHING?!?!
Its just random bullshit.
[/QUOTE]

Also, andy2002, thee are quite a few medical students who attend this board. Its not in their interests to discredit the very methods employed by their future profession.

So you are assuming:
1) I provide all my personal details here
2) My 'supervisors' - aka big brother aka every NHS trust in the UK is monitoring what i believe.
3) I have no idea of right and wrong
4) I would rather listen to what 'big brother' says than let my future patients die.

No offense intended to such students, of course, but it is a factor to consider.

Fuck you cunt
'No offence' - i couldnt think of anything more offensive to say to a medic- especially considering you are so full of BULL SHIT

Consider this post reported.

http://www.geocities.com/queencaz2002/VACCSMAIN.html

Yes- that well respected and endorsed website that comes out with medical 'facts' like

AIDS scientists blame AIDS on promiscuity, homosexuality, dirty needles, drugs, air travel, etc,, but never once do they seriously consider themselves responsible in any way for the AIDS holocaust. - Alan Cantwell MD.

and has its front page devoted to the talk of class war

Compulsory vaccinations, along with conscription, immediately make me want to go out and buy guns.

AT LAST!! THE VOICE OR REASON!! dickhead

But the latest ruse, of course, is to tell everyone that there's a shortage of certain vaccines. This is designed to have us all banging on their doors demanding that they give these vaccines to us, rather than forcing them into us via the law.

What planet are you on?!
is this 'big brother' you're accusing of wanting to use the law to force people to be vaccinated?
Whose doors will we go banging on?
GPs? You mean GPs are spreading these rumours?
I've never heard this before.
Seems a bit silly to have a public health programme that
1) Puts the public at risk
2) Isnt equpped to carry out its task

 

[slaar]

New Salgado Work

http://www.endofpolio.org/home.html

In India, a child drags herself across an orphanage floor, her knees raw with open sores. In the Democratic Republic of Congo, an elderly man earns a pittance hauling goods on his wheelchair – the only work he has ever had. In Nigeria, young men play soccer with their hands, propelling themselves on rough skateboards. Polio robbed them of their ability to walk forever.

The crippling virus has disabled nearly 20 million people living today. But the world is poised to ensure that not one more person ever suffers such a fate. Since its creation in 1988, the Global Polio Eradication Initiative has helped cut the global toll of polio paralysis from an estimated 350,000 to fewer than 500 in 2001. Thanks to the hard work of millions of volunteers, the commitment of governments everywhere and the dedication of international partners, nearly four million people have been spared crippling lifelong disability.

Very soon we will live in a polio-free world. The Initiative demonstrates how much can be achieved when the world pulls together to help all its citizens. This site, featuring the work of renowned Brazilian photojournalist Sebastião Salgado, tells the epic story of how this disease is being eradicated.

...but I suppose this is all whitewash and misinformation? The polio vaccine isn't even injected into the bloodstream, it's oral, and has had an unbelievable success record in reducing third world suffering.