Mmr

[laptop]

he spent ages and ages arranging the pebbles on the beach into a nice straight line

Weren't the council a bit miffed with him nicking their beach?

Not to speak of the Siberians being puzzled by a toddler appearing with a line of pebbles?

 

[Helga]

Weren't the council a bit miffed with him nicking their beach?

Not to speak of the Siberians being puzzled by a toddler appearing with a line of pebbles?

i think this would have happened if i hadn't got fed up eventually and dragged him off for fish and chips...never seen anyone quite so intent on any task

 

[Strumpet]

I was in your position a few years ago andy.
Its scary and often confusing with all the different opinions of "experts" (because some clearly aren't) and parents.....
I listened to BOTH and read alot about both and then made my decision.
As long as you do your research you will make the right decision for you and your family.

 

[_angel_]

Have to declare an interest. Both my sons are autistic. One had the MMR one didn't.

By the way ..
" #30 17-02-2005, 06:03 PM
oryx
Trust me - I'm an oryx Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 1,417

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJazzz
Amazingly, doctors use the line 'autism begins to show around vaccination time' as a reason to ignore any such link. Never mind that they cannot find any unvaccinated children with autism, because they don't exist.



Wasn't the condition known as autism recognised long before the triple jab was used?

I don't have sprogs but if I did would definitely get them vaccinated. I was only reading yesterday that mumps can lead to meningitis, and can cause miscarriages if a carrier comes into contact with a pregnant woman. The risks of measles & rubella are better known I think, as is the possibility of mumps (in either gender) causing sterility "


Yes of course autism existed before the MMR. There has been a rise in it but that's not to say it is the cause. There are likely many many different influences on the cause of autism.


Either way get the child vaccinated (especially against Measles) whether its by single jabs or the triple.


I had both children vaccinated (one way or the other) and James still got measles (!) but it will help against any of the 'complications' (brain damage for example). I was glad he'd had the jabs as when he got Measles I realised he got off relatively lightly with it.


I am still undecided on the whole issue I've got to say, but get him immunised somehow!

 

[Idris2002]

Autism has been slowly rising in incidence since the 1970s.

The MMR jab was introduced in 1987.

If MMR caused autism you would expect to see a sudden, swift and sharp rise in autism cases from 1987 onwards.

There was no such sudden swift and sharp rise in autism cases in 1987. Instead autism continued its slow, steady increase.

 

[Jazzz]

Bollox Dr J ---- (& I have shared this with you before btw)

My son had the MMR vacine AFTER his Autism was evident !

But not before he had had several other vaccines.

Wasn't the condition known as autism recognised long before the triple jab was used?

yes it has existed since the late 1930s, following the introduction of whooping cough vaccination. When Leo Kanner named it, he said it was unlike anything he had seen before. Japan didn't have it until after the war, which is when they started whooping cough vaccination. In the UK it was later that we started whooping cough vaccinations, and later that we had diagnosed cases of autism.

Initially in the US researchers were puzzled that it only seemed to mainly affect the kids of parents who were college graduates and sought to find a genetic reason - they couldn't. It was the wealthy parents who could afford the vaccine at the time.

(this information came from a book by Neil. Z. Miller "vaccines - are they really safe and effective" which contains references

Autism has been slowly rising in incidence since the 1970s.

The MMR jab was introduced in 1987.

If MMR caused autism you would expect to see a sudden, swift and sharp rise in autism cases from 1987 onwards.

There was no such sudden swift and sharp rise in autism cases in 1987. Instead autism continued its slow, steady increase.

Only if the MMR vaccine was causing autism at a much greater rate than the measles vaccine it was replacing. Personally I don't think the MMR is responsible for that much autism, compared to other vaccines. It may be responsible for a particular type which Dr. Wakefield was noting.

For pity's sake - that's clearly bollocks. Please show us the source for this remarkable claim

You are right to ask for sources and information here for such a crucial point tarannau. I don't ask anyone to believe me nor their GPs but to research things for themselves until they are satisfied.

from "Autism - By Dr Viera Scheibner and Bronwyn Hancock BSc."

"You might even ask on parents’ email lists if any have unvaccinated children that have developed autism, and find these cases to be very rare. In each such case we ourselves have been able to find, there was another clearly identifiable immune assault. Occasionally the immune assault was only to the mother, in the form of a rubella or MMR booster prior to conception, but these children have not been severe, difficult to treat cases. We have found NO case of an unvaccinated child that began life with normal development and then out of the blue, in the absence of any medical procedure, regressed into any kind of autism, even mild."

I rather think it's up to the medical industry to find an unvaccinated child with autism (or ADHD, for that matter, or whatever) if they want to disprove the assertion that vaccines are responsible for it. As far as I am aware, unvaccinated children just don't get autism.

some sites which put the case against vaccines

Vaccination Debate
Vaccination Information Service
National Vaccine Information Centre
The Informed Parent

 

[editor]

from "Autism - By Dr Viera Scheibner and Bronwyn Hancock BSc."

Ah yes!

Dr Viera Scheibner (retired) - winner of the 'Bent Spoon Award 1997'!

The 1997 winner of the Australian Skeptics Bent Spoon Award, presented annually to the Australian "perpetrator of the most preposterous piece of pseudoscientific piffle", was announced at the convention.

The unanimous choice of the judges was Dr Viera Scheibner for her high profile anti-immunisation campaign which, by promoting new age and conspiracy mythology and by owing little to scientific methodologies or research, poses a serious threat to the health of Australian children.

http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/spoon/1997winners.htm

Another fantastic source, DrJ!

Maybe it's time for some more of that Super-Oxygenated pentawater!.

 

[Red Faction]

I was in Dublin 2-3 years back, iirc 12 babies died of measles. Why? Someone wasnt vaccinated and transmitted it to them.
I distinctly remember at school being in the queue for the MMR when my best mate said to me 'If everyone else gets vaccinated, then I wont need to will I?'
He's now sterile because of the MASSIVE mumps outbreak in london this year.
GET VACCINATED

Dr Jazz is full of shit

Dr Wakefield was a scumcunt pure and simple. Either that or plain retarded. There is no link between the MMR and autism.

imo- the most offensive thing a few years back when this debate was at its peak- Tony Blair came out urging all parents to have the MMR when he refused to tell us whether or not Leo had got it.

He should lead by example, not lie to parents, not erode the public's trust in the medical profession


Here's question that all waverers of the mmr give the same answer to:
Have you had mumps? Seen someone die of measles? Seen rubella in action?

Always- the answer is no.
If you knew what it was like- and you had read the wakefield report
you wouldnt think twice about giving your child the MMR- you'd do it straight away!!

 

[Kameron]

Vaccination is a hugely emotive issue because it is leading some people here to cross a boundary that I believe to be uncrossable. They are telling you out right back by emotive stories and righteous indignation to put something into your body and your child's body. Harmful or not, whatever the facts, whatever their feelings that is wrong. Even my Mum would never consider telling me what to put or not put in my body now that I'm an adult. This is the danger of such emotive issues - they don't beget rational debate.

I have never had any vaccination except tetanus that I had as a booster following a serious hole I made in myself in the playground aged 15 or so. I date from a time before autism scares and all that Jazz and the reasons that I can count the number of visits I have ever made to the doctor on my finger are more complex than a bit of bad science.

I was in Dublin 2-3 years back, iirc 12 babies died of measles. Why? Someone wasnt vaccinated and transmitted it to them.
I distinctly remember at school being in the queue for the MMR when my best mate said to me 'If everyone else gets vaccinated, then I wont need to will I?'
He's now sterile because of the MASSIVE mumps outbreak in london this year.
GET VACCINATED

By the time, you are in your early twenties the effect of the Mumps vaccine is so reduced that it does not offer protection to people with depressed immune systems. The out breaks of Mumps last year started among students who typically have reduced immune response during their first term. Mumps booster jabs were offered to students to counter this. So lets just emphasise that this story is bollox just as much as Dr Jazz April fool site.

There are other options, don't let yourself be pushed around by people who evidently don't know anymore about the subject than you do and yet feel able to tell you categorically about the best interests of your child.

 

[madzone]

Kameron - that's a fucking excellent post.

 

[_angel_]

"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maddalene
Wasn't the condition known as autism recognised long before the triple jab was used?

I didn't post that quote . Dr Jazz, I was trying to do a quote from someone else but failed badly.
I don't seem to be able to get them to work for me???


ooh I think I've mastered it now. Thanks for the info anyway.

 

[Jazzz]

Ah yes!

Dr Viera Scheibner (retired) - winner of the 'Bent Spoon Award 1997'!


Another fantastic source, DrJ!

Maybe it's time for some more of that Super-Oxygenated pentawater!.

Ah right, attacking the source and not the argument.

In the fascist medical culture we have, anyone who dares question the value of vaccines - whether Wakefield or Schneiber - can expect to have a concerted campaign against them.

The point remains, where are the unvaccinated children with autism? If they exist, it would be very easy to put Viera Scheibner and Bronwyn Hancock's arguments to rest by simply producing them. Yet, this group of children are never looked at. We have given generations increasing dosages of toxic and foreign material and with that we have ever increasing problems of immune dysfunction and mental impairment - yet it is simply assumed the two are not related until proven otherwise. There is no 'precautionary principle' at work here. Just big business.

Kameron - I don't see that any site I have linked to here is in any way an 'April Fool' site. I am very envious of you having had so few vaccinations and would give anything to be able to hand mine back.

Maddalene - you're welcome.

 

[Mrs Magpie]

So Dr J. as my great aunt, born before 1900 with autism, was from a family that only used homeopathic remedies I can lay the blame for her autism on Samuel Hahnemann?

 

[Donna Ferentes]

In the fascist medical culture we have

He's right though. I have to wear a swastika armband in the library.

 

[redsquirrel]

It should be pointed out that DrJazz posted that same link before in another thread and was shown up. See here

 

[Mrs Magpie]

Interesting reading, this....

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/health_medical/story.jsp?story=610965

 

[tarannau]

The point remains, where are the unvaccinated children with autism? If they exist, it would be very easy to put Viera Scheibner and Bronwyn Hancock's arguments to rest by simply producing them. Yet, this group of children are never looked at. We have given generations increasing dosages of toxic and foreign material and with that we have ever increasing problems of immune dysfunction and mental impairment - yet it is simply assumed the two are not related until proven otherwise. There is no 'precautionary principle' at work here. Just big business

Are you really claiming that no-one had autism before mass vacination programmes? Just because autism wasn't 'officially' and fully recognised as a specific medical complaint until the 1930's doesn't mean that it didn't exist.

It beggars belief that you continually post this link/falsehood as fact, despite the real world evidence provided by several posters and pretty much every medical source bar the laughably discredited Viera Scheibner. You'll be posting up Dr Gillian McKeith comments as scientific fact next....

 

[Kameron]

Kameron - I don't see that any site I have linked to here is in any way an 'April Fool' site.

Look, neither of them are medical doctors with Scheibner apparently having a degree in Geology and no medical training what so ever, they are on a site so packed with so much garbage and cheep ads I can't believe it and they have a track record of bad science.

There is no doubt that fewer children die from measles when they have had the jab. This reduces the number of deaths in childhood. However, there are potentially other low level effects such as the rise in the prevalence of allergies, asthma, ADHD, IBS and all the rest. There are those that believe these things are linked but neither is the evidence very strong, proving links is near impossible and it is only one element of a much larger set of decisions that people make for their children everyday, attaching to much weight to this one thing would be folly.

In the absence of strong feelings to the contrary taking any path other than, that recommended by the GMC would in my personal view be a mistake, to think that they are infallible would be a bigger mistake.

 

[KeeperofDragons]

I had my kids vacinated as reading between the lines of research & speaking to my GP I found that the risks to them & others around them are far greater than any from the jabs. BTW there are still women out there who are either unvacinated against rubella or the jab was not as effective at the time it was given. I had to be tested for immunity for this reason & the fact that I wasn't sure that I had had the jab.

That said, don't be pushed around make your own decision on the basis of what's good for your child - you & your GP know his medical history & you know your family's, go with your gut feeling.

KoD

 

[Jazzz]

There is no doubt that fewer children die from measles when they have had the jab.

Kameron you are clearly someone who has been thinking about this but I urge you to take absolutely nothing for granted where vaccination is concerned - not even this statement.

In both the USA and the UK there were dramatic declines in the measles death rate before vaccination - 97-99% from turn of the century levels. When you take this into account, it is absolutely impossible to credit vaccination with the further decline. Indeed the introduction of vaccination in the USA made no impact on the death rate at all.

http://www.the7thfire.com/MeaslesVaccine.htm
http://www.whale.to/v/measles_deaths.html

The vaccinists will simply quote the incidence of the disease (not death rate) pre- and post vaccination, which is neither here nor there, and ignore the real story. Measles was all but completely tamed without vaccines, but now when someone considers not vaccinating their child against it, they are held to be gambling with his/her life! This thread is ample example of that.

 

[Donna Ferentes]

http://www.the7thfire.com/MeaslesVaccine.htm

Check this page too, it's great!

 

[Donna Ferentes]

"The Orcas have told us that their lives are endangered by the poisons we have been adding to the water. Miracle II is a new scientific technology that is a completely natural product that you can use for cleaning, hygiene and health. Replace all of your conventional cleaning chemicals with products that will cost you less. Be proactive when it comes to the Orcas and your family's safety and wellness. Use Miracle II . When it goes down the drain it just keeps cleaning the Earth, naturally. Safe for you, safe for Mother Earth."

How did the Orcas communicate this message? Semaphore? Email?

 

[tarannau]

'kin ell. Dr J's sources get more plausible and creditable by the second. Love it....

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Wait! There's more!

And what of the "VIBE Machine for energizing tired cells so they can fix themselves"?

 

[pk]

IGNORE Dr Jazzz - it's one thing laughing at his hologram 9/11 theories but another thing entirely when the health and well-being of a child is concerned.

I am of the opinion that EVERY SINGLE FUCKING IGNORANT COMMENT he has made on this topic should be deleted.

If he were giving the other side of the argument backed up by medical evidence that would be fine - but no, it's more conspiranoid bollocks.

You do realise that Dr Jazzz actually believes that the MMR is in fact some kind of way for shadowy government organisations to place transmitters into your bloodstream!!

If you base your decision on any of the shite he's been spouting then you're deeply mistaken, and doing your children a disservice.

 

[Jazzz]

I am not going to bother responding to pk's utter crap.

It is the measles facts I am interested in, not whatever else may be on the websites that host the page I linked to which contains well argued and sourced information. If Justin or anyone else has differing statistics on the death rates of measles from the turn of the century onwards they are welcome to present them.

If the experience of USA and the UK is not good enough, here's Australia

source

 

[toggle]

my personal opinion was that the triple jab would put too much stress on a child's immune system when given too young. I believe that the risks from stressing their immune system are very much reduced, to the point that the risks form ebing unvaccinated are greater as they get older, hence, i had my son vaccinated at 3, and will do the same for my daughter.

 

[pk]

I am not going to bother responding to pk's utter crap.

Do you deny entertaining the theory that immunisation jabs are a way of "the man" to keep tabs on us mere mortals, Dr Jazzz?

Because I recall starting a thread on the same topic when worried about my own child - and all you offered was conspiranoid bollocks.

And links to shit websites Joe Vialls would be embarrassed to link to.

Are you qualified to comment on MMR debates? - I think not.

 

[madzone]

Are you qualified to comment on MMR debates? - I think not.

Not to get invlved or anything but none of us are really qualified to comment are we?

 

[Techno303]

Not to get invlved or anything but none of us are really qualified to comment are we?

And neither is Dr Viera Scheibner...