mmigration: can a balance be struck?

[tbaldwin]

From the point of view of the workers concerned that would be obvious. And no I'm not advocating that Polish workers should have wages equal to workers in London. Rather I think all workers should have higher wages.

Including high court judges?lawyers?politicians?charity workers?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Gramsci when did you stop regarding them as alien migrants? Did you used to be in the BNP?

Go look up the words in a dictionary before asking dickhead questions about BNP membership, balders.

 

[neprimerimye]

Including high court judges?lawyers?politicians?charity workers?

Oh now you're just being silly. They should be shot.

Especially charity workers.

 

[Knotted]

Neprimerimye, aren't international problems to do with inequalities between workers doing similar jobs just a reflection of inequalities between the bosses.

Surely the proletariat can only do a minimal amount to help an oppressed bourgeoisie short of overthrowing it. Permanent revolution and all that.

 

[neprimerimye]

Neprimerimye, aren't international problems to do with inequalities between workers doing similar jobs just a reflection of inequalities between the bosses.

Surely the proletariat can only do a minimal amount to help an oppressed bourgeoisie short of overthrowing it. Permanent revolution and all that.

Sure the law of combined and uneven development would suggest that inequalities between various countries cannot be ironed out short of the overthrow of the boss class and a planned economy.

Thing is that cionvergence within the EU does mean that in general workers in the more developed countries will experience pressure from the bosses for welfare benefits and wages to be reduced due to increased competition with less developed countries and the influx of labopur to the more developed countries.

Unless the working class faces the attacks on its standard of living that result from convergence on a European level we're stuffed. Either migrant labour is brought into the unions or we can write off the next 20-30 years after the last.

 

[tbaldwin]

Go look up the words in a dictionary before asking dickhead questions about BNP membership, balders.

You and your dictionary VP......Interesting thread though. I do think that there is some common ground between what people like durrutti and me have been saying and that of people who at first thought of us as secret racists etc.
The media now is talking about a huge migration from Rumania and Bulgaria.....The people who will probably lose out as usual will be the last lot of migrants....In this case Poles......

 

[Knotted]

Sure the law of combined and uneven development would suggest that inequalities between various countries cannot be ironed out short of the overthrow of the boss class and a planned economy.

Thing is that cionvergence within the EU does mean that in general workers in the more developed countries will experience pressure from the bosses for welfare benefits and wages to be reduced due to increased competition with less developed countries and the influx of labopur to the more developed countries.

Unless the working class faces the attacks on its standard of living that result from convergence on a European level we're stuffed. Either migrant labour is brought into the unions or we can write off the next 20-30 years after the last.

Well I'm not sure if I agree with your underlying assumption that convergence is inevitable. I'm not even sure what convergence means. Are we talking exchange rates, GDP or living standards?

Globally the period post world war 2 saw a massive divergence in terms of wealth of the world's richest nations and the world's poorest nations but at the same time the global economy has integrated - globalisation.

 

[neprimerimye]

Well I'm not sure if I agree with your underlying assumption that convergence is inevitable. I'm not even sure what convergence means. Are we talking exchange rates, GDP or living standards?

Globally the period post world war 2 saw a massive divergence in terms of wealth of the world's richest nations and the world's poorest nations but at the same time the global economy has integrated - globalisation.

Dunno if convergence is inevitable myself but it is a very real tendency that is taking place in the here and now. In terms of wage levels the opening of the Uk labour market to migrant workers from the new EU states cannot buit tend to hold down wage levels generally in britain while pushing them up n countries with a shrunnken labour market. But these are long term tendencies. So there is time, if not much, to fight against the negative effects of this tendency in the UK.

 

[Knotted]

Dunno if convergence is inevitable myself but it is a very real tendency that is taking place in the here and now. In terms of wage levels the opening of the Uk labour market to migrant workers from the new EU states cannot buit tend to hold down wage levels generally in britain while pushing them up n countries with a shrunnken labour market. But these are long term tendencies. So there is time, if not much, to fight against the negative effects of this tendency in the UK.

I think it might be more complex than that. I would expect that most of the upper sections of the native working class and new middle class will gain from immigration via cheeper prices and services while loosing very little in terms of wage competition.

At the same time those who are directly competing with immigrant labour are likely to be unskilled workers many of whom will be immigrants themselves.

What I would expect is that there will come a breaking point, like there did in the US a while ago, and there will be a big drive by immigrants to organise themselves, but this will not be on the basis of calling for open borders and further European integration - possibly the reverse!

At the same time there will be greater stratification and inequality within the working class making its overall position weaker.

 

[Gramsci]

Gramsci when did you stop regarding them as alien migrants? Did you used to be in the BNP?[/QUOTE

What a stupid remark.You could have read my post properly.As you like to take the moral high ground whats your personal experience of immigration?

 

[Gramsci]

You and your dictionary VP......Interesting thread though. I do think that there is some common ground between what people like durrutti and me have been saying and that of people who at first thought of us as secret racists etc.
The media now is talking about a huge migration from Rumania and Bulgaria.....The people who will probably lose out as usual will be the last lot of migrants....In this case Poles......

I know someone who is working in Poland.He says there is now a labour shortage in the building industry as they have all fucked off to the West.The Polish government recently came to the UK to ask for Poles to go back to work in Poland.The Polish government is thinking of getting Ukranians and Russians to come to Poland to fill the labour gap.This is a merry go round of globalisation leading to a race to the bottom as far as wages and conditions go.

 

[Gramsci]

I think it might be more complex than that. I would expect that most of the upper sections of the native working class and new middle class will gain from immigration via cheeper prices and services while loosing very little in terms of wage competition.

What I would expect is that there will come a breaking point, like there did in the US a while ago, and there will be a big drive by immigrants to organise themselves, but this will not be on the basis of calling for open borders and further European integration - possibly the reverse!

At the same time there will be greater stratification and inequality within the working class making its overall position weaker.

I agree.The recent Trade Union campaign to get people to boycott Peugout cars as they are relocating their factory from the UK to Slovakia where wages are low failed.It hasnt affected their car sales figures at all.Cheap labour is good for some people.I didnt like the campaign anyway as it was to Little Englander for me.The adverts in the papers were full of Union Jack flags urging people to be patriotic and boycott foreign cars.

Also Ive heard second generation immigrants(from Ireland and the Carribean)complaining that the Poles will work for less.Its surprising how the children of recent migrants soon forget thats what their parents did.

 

[neprimerimye]

I think it might be more complex than that. I would expect that most of the upper sections of the native working class and new middle class will gain from immigration via cheeper prices and services while loosing very little in terms of wage competition.

At the same time those who are directly competing with immigrant labour are likely to be unskilled workers many of whom will be immigrants themselves.

What I would expect is that there will come a breaking point, like there did in the US a while ago, and there will be a big drive by immigrants to organise themselves, but this will not be on the basis of calling for open borders and further European integration - possibly the reverse!

At the same time there will be greater stratification and inequality within the working class making its overall position weaker.

In fact the general tendency I wrote of will touch on the lives of many of the more skilled sections of the working classes in this country and even non-proletarian strata such as doctors. Or am i mmistaken in noting that large numbers of migrant workers are working in the IT field and that the NHS is staffed to some considerable degree by imported doctors as much as nurses?

Which is good evidence of my assertion that a plentiful supply of migrant labour will have a tendency to depress wage levels unless labour can organise to counteract said tendency by means of its collective strength.

 

[Knotted]

In fact the general tendency I wrote of will touch on the lives of many of the more skilled sections of the working classes in this country and even non-proletarian strata such as doctors. Or am i mmistaken in noting that large numbers of migrant workers are working in the IT field and that the NHS is staffed to some considerable degree by imported doctors as much as nurses?

Which is good evidence of my assertion that a plentiful supply of migrant labour will have a tendency to depress wage levels unless labour can organise to counteract said tendency by means of its collective strength.

This is true to an extent but the fact remains that most migrant labourers are working for less than £6 an hour. Many of these workers are highly educated but cannot get good jobs due to language factors and lack of connections and the fact that the UK pumps out graduates 10 a penny anyway. Also the medical proffession is something of a special case in that there has been targetted recruitment from eastern European countries. Even then I'm not sure if that has effected doctors' salaries although it has certainly effected services in Poland.

 

[tbaldwin]

Gramsci when did you stop regarding them as alien migrants? Did you used to be in the BNP?[/QUOTE

What a stupid remark.You could have read my post properly.As you like to take the moral high ground whats your personal experience of immigration?

Loads of friends/family from immigrant stock.......It doesnt give me any moral high ground though......

 

[tbaldwin]

Also Ive heard second generation immigrants(from Ireland and the Carribean)complaining that the Poles will work for less.Its surprising how the children of recent migrants soon forget thats what their parents did.

Of course 2nd generation immigrants are against mass migration....They are much more likely to be competing for jobs and housing......Racist Liberals just never seem to understand that.........

 

[Knotted]

I agree.The recent Trade Union campaign to get people to boycott Peugout cars as they are relocating their factory from the UK to Slovakia where wages are low failed.It hasnt affected their car sales figures at all.Cheap labour is good for some people.I didnt like the campaign anyway as it was to Little Englander for me.The adverts in the papers were full of Union Jack flags urging people to be patriotic and boycott foreign cars.

Consumer boycots don't work whether they are tasteful or not. The campaign was about posturing but having said that I think trade unions should not give capital a free ride in choosing which workers it can best exploit.

Also Ive heard second generation immigrants(from Ireland and the Carribean)complaining that the Poles will work for less.Its surprising how the children of recent migrants soon forget thats what their parents did.

Its better to advance your interests than it is to moralise. The past can never be ours but the future can.