Miss England

[JHE]

However did not the individuals around feminist & Race/Ethnicity groups break away for better jobs and careers.
Or am I mistaken???

I expect some of the individuals went on to get well paid jobs - e.g., in local government. So have many other ex-Social Workers.

 

[Nigel]

I was pointing more towards similarities between Radical Feminist Elements around this period and what Islamicists say today.

Perhaps I should have made this clearer!

 

[Nigel]

That depends whether one wishes to point out their social and political agendas rather than just say "that's crap TV".

Are you saying that things like this should be banned?

 

[JHE]

I was pointing more towards similarities between Radical Feminist Elements around this period and what Islamicists say today.

Perhaps I should have made this clearer!

Yes, I know you were - but I don't remember Rad Fems, or Trots, threatening to murder participants in beauty contests.

There's a big difference between (i) some feminists making a noisy (&, IMO, reasonable) protest at a beauty contest and (ii) the enraged Muslims who murdered hundreds of people in Nigeria a couple of years ago (after a young journalist had the temerity to suggest that the Prophet would have married a Miss World contestant).

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I would claim that things like this are socially damaging; see the "Page 3" thread in General for more details. Whether they should be banned is a seperate issue. They definitely have a political aspect though.

If however you were merely making some sort of historical comparison I can't really argue either way since I was not involved with said groups at said time.

 

[Nigel]

Political Aspect!!!

Everything has a political aspect?
Even Breathing?
Briefly what are you refering to?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

The implications of the promotion of the objectification of women represented by beauty contests. (Briefly.)

 

[Nigel]

Yes, I know you were - but I don't remember Rad Fems, or Trots, threatening to murder participants in beauty contests.

There's a big difference between (i) some feminists making a noisy (&, IMO, reasonable) protest at a beauty contest and (ii) the enraged Muslims who murdered hundreds of people in Nigeria a couple of years ago (after a young journalist had the temerity to suggest that the Prophet would have married a Miss World contestant).

Some people just can't take a joke can they!

 

[Soul On Ice]

Interesting this . . . I normally dislike beauty contests for the regular fem reasons but with this I am inclined to set up a "Support Hammasa Kohistani" campaign.

I loathe the idea that her behaviour and decisions should be policed by those that think they have a right to do so just because she is muslim, and believe they have the sole right to judge what is right and wrong because she is a muslim. In my opinion, this is a worse kind of power play and oppression than that inherent in beauty pagents, so therefore she has my support.

Interestingly, you didn't get Turkish people threatening to kill their Eurovision winner just because she entered a competition on television, had a bare-midriff and did some jaunty dancing, did you?

As ever the left gets confused and befuddled when confronted by issues that don't fit neatly into the prevaling orthodoxy.

The quote from Dissident Junk above is about the only sensible response to this I've seen.

Of course if you are on the left you will be opposed to the objectoifcatino of women in beauty contests. But giving death threats to someone who takes part is way out of line, wehter that death threat is made by a feminist group (not that I am aware one has been made by such a group) or by a religious group.

As DJ rightly points out such death threats are a much worse institutionalised oppression of women.

It is beyond me why the travellers on the left need to respond to the situation either by way of repeating a diktat from the central committee or recourse to pedantic and obscure ideology or the need to prove their left wing credentials. Making death threats is seldom an ideologically sound postion - and you don't need to be a marxist scholar to know making death threats against a contestant in a beauty contest is wrong.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Of course if you are on the left you will be opposed to the objectoifcatino of women in beauty contests.

Well, actually, and rather sadly, no, that doesn't appear to be the case - at least not based on a lot of the threads I've been reading recently, where people seem often entirely unaware that there are any issues there at all. Not just disagreeing, simply unaware. But I would like to think that posters on this board are not a representative sample.

I've never seen any disagreement on the matter of death threats being a bad thing.

 

[Nigel]

Are'nt/Were'nt individuals who helped setting up the Toture Garden and/or Skin Two at one time Radical Feminists into Trashing the top shelf of newsagents.

Does'nt some of the imagery from this scene fit more into 'the objectification of women' than The Sun or beauty competitions.
or if sexuality is represented in ta subcultural devient manner it becomes more socially acceptable among elements on the left.

 

[Soul On Ice]

Well, actually, and rather sadly, no, that doesn't appear to be the case - at least not based on a lot of the threads I've been reading recently, where people seem often entirely unaware that there are any issues there at all. Not just disagreeing, simply unaware. But I would like to think that posters on this board are not a representative sample.

I'm bloody amazed at this. I think if you read my posts you will see I'm an establishment leftie and not hugely radical but even I can see that beuaty contests are suspect in terms of gender oppression. I'm amazed that there are people claiming some form of left wing credentials that are unaware of this. Some folk have got their heads up their arses.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Shit yeah, I was too. Though to be fair I think some people might not have explicitly claimed left-wing credentials (some had). But I thought that anyone who'd be arguing about the subject would at least be aware of the basic points that need addressing, even if they disagreed with them.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Are'nt/Were'nt individuals who helped setting up the Toture Garden and/or Skin Two at one time Radical Feminists into Trashing the top shelf of newsagents.

I don't know. Do you have any indication that they were? What relevance would you consider that that had were it to be true?

Does'nt some of the imagery from this scene fit more into 'the objectification of women' than The Sun or beauty competitions.

Not if it's in the context of consensual submissive play rather than the normalised objectification represented by Page 3, no.

or if sexuality is represented in ta subcultural devient manner it becomes more socially acceptable among elements on the left.

"devient"? What's a "devient" manner of sexuality? (No, I'm not criticising your spelling here.)

 

[laptop]

Doesn't "deviant" these days mean "anything except boy-fancies Miss World"?

Which is pretty fucking kinky seen from here. What's more fetishistic: a walking makeup-and-cosmetic-surgery advert, or some PVC?

And it's the whole process of "normalising" woman-as-commodity-fetish that is the reason for opposing Miss World, I think.

 

[JHE]

...I'm an establishment leftie...

What's one of them? Do you hum the Internationale in the House of Lords?

 

[lewislewis]

Think it's pretty cool...its her choice to be in it. I wonder what Miss Wales is like.

 

[JHE]

I wonder what Miss Wales is like.

Does anyone really miss Wales?

Oh, yeah - she exists and is as glam as all the other beauty contestants.

If you really like all that rubbish, feast on this - "in association with Cellite Clinic - shaping your ideal"!

 

[bolshyvic]

Anyone on the left should defend her irrespective of the beauty contest issue.

She is as much being attacked because she has chosen the path of education and independence without compromisng her own identity or faith.

Surely that makes her a good role model for young British moslem women who are struggling to balance the pressures of a modern secular society on one hand and a conservative culture on the other.

If she can help those young girls become more confident and aspirational then that has got to be a good thing. She could be the catalyst for a progressive development in a layer of society that is woefully unrepresented.

 

[laptop]

If she can help those young girls become more confident and aspirational

You've not met many young Muslim women, have you?

 

[Chuck Wilson]

What happened to Ratan ? I didn't think his post was that bad.

Anyone remember Scargill and his defence of the page 3 girls in the NUM paper/magazine?

 

[Soul On Ice]

What's one of them? Do you hum the Internationale in the House of Lords?

Nah I'm not as establishment as that - just a trade union bureaucrat

 

[FridgeMagnet]

What happened to Ratan ?

Returner.

 

[Chuck Wilson]

Returner.

Previously banned?

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Uh, yeah, you don't get banned just for returning, otherwise everybody who posted more than once would be banned.... Anyway, it's not connected to this thread.

 

[JWH]

The article states that she was originally from Afganistan.

Uzbekistan.

Edit: sorry, just read it again, you're right - they did pass through Afghanistan for a bit, doesn't say how long.

 

[Nigel]

What happened to Ratan ? I didn't think his post was that bad.

Anyone remember Scargill and his defence of the page 3 girls in the NUM paper/magazine?

How does that go down with his Metodist puritanical principles?

One of the points that I am trying to make is the Cause & Effect you get by giving credibility to opportunist groups and individuals on issues that are'nt really causing any serious problems, are'nt anti-social and at the end of the day are done by consenting adults. That tend to create any environment of hysteria, stich up the people who back them, turn their world outlook away from trying to change the conditions of whatever 'oppressed' group they self-rightousley established themselves to 'liberate' and are now making a fortune in projects that in my opinion are self masturbation.

Personally, I could'nt give a damn if people want to enter Beauty Competitions or protest against them. I would defend both groups with my dieing breath to do so on the principle of freedom and democracy. However if such a process repeats itself within a socialist movement, if and in my opinion socialist ideas will become more popular and credible, then I would do everything in my power to stop this happening.

THOSE WHO DO NOT LEARN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY ARE CONDEMNED TO REPEAT THEM!!!!