" Ministers take far-right fight to estates"

[badco]

Go ahead, you're going to lose. Again.

Quote me as hating pakis?

 

[badco]

i think he's taking this bit literally.

Are you thick?

 

[goosegrease]

I agree with whats been said about investment into communities. This is just a pre election ploy for the LP to hang to areas they've been iognoring for the past 11 years cos they've been too busy pandering to the middle classes, who have now gone back to the Tories.
It aint gonna work, theyve fostered so much hatred against themselves that the only reason most folk would bother turning up would be to have a go at them.
The BNP are probly going to do well in some areas come the GE. I'm in two minds about that, on the one hand it always grates to see a facist party dupe people into voting for them on a poularist platform that is essentially meaningless, I mean they are'nt to going to solve anyone's problems at the end of the day. But maybe it's going to take that experience before people realise this, fuck it let them sit in council chambers, the european parliament and the british one too and after 4 years I can start asking folk if they got what they voted for from the BNP? The answer will be no.

 

[tbaldwin]

Labour have had well over a decade to demonstrate to these people that they have something to offer. Now that it's clear they have done pretty much fuck all and are going to be out on their arse within a year they are crapping themselves, but they only have themselves to blame.

Agreed with what's already been said about 'community leaders'. Put their heads on pikes next to the politicians.

Not the way i see it at all. Labour have massivelly increased spending on health and education. They have made some serious mistakes, been too timid at times but to say they have made no difference would be wrong.
Things like the MIG,EMA,MINIMUM WAGE are easy for middle class critics to overlook but they have made a difference to millions of people.

What do people think would happen to tax credits,the minimum wage, the eudcational maintenance allowance and the minimum income guarantee under the Tories?

 

[durruti02]

Please please please vote labour in the next GE - you can fuck off after that for another 4 years though. Each measure is easily emptied of real content i.e jobs aleady turning into work experience, community leaders acting as patient explainers to the community means that they act as the govts transmission belt into the community, not the other way round - they sell the govts polices rather than imposing the local needs -not to mention probably creating 'white community' leaders on the failed model of top-down multi-culturalism. And they'll probably identify the wrong areas anyway.

oh yes

 

[moon23]

It's a weird one, 'community leader'. Quite often it's the loudest gobshite who represents themselves as such who then gets quoted by journalists.

Yep or some religious 'elder' type with outdated but very vocal opinions that are totally unrepresentative. Let’s all declare ourselves community leaders.

 

[Carousel]

What do people think would happen to tax credits,the minimum wage, the eudcational maintenance allowance and the minimum income guarantee under the Tories?

At least they wouldn't have to have to repay their “overpayments”. Besides, all these measures have just contributed to the lack of social mobility and economic instability they were ostensibly designed to mitigate. People are tired of being blackmailed into voting Labour or Libdem by some made up Tory bogeyman. It’s not as if the parties really have latitude in terms of social policy anyway. By the time we’ve decided to maintain imports of food and energy and traditional morality as far as the role of work and family is concerned, our policy options are pretty much limited to what prevails at present.

 

[goosegrease]

Not the way i see it at all. Labour have massivelly increased spending on health and education. They have made some serious mistakes, been too timid at times but to say they have made no difference would be wrong.
Things like the MIG,EMA,MINIMUM WAGE are easy for middle class critics to overlook but they have made a difference to millions of people.

What do people think would happen to tax credits,the minimum wage, the eudcational maintenance allowance and the minimum income guarantee under the Tories?

Eh? Massively increased private finance and a corporate culture into health and education that has not lead to any noticable improvement in service to most people. Just makes for confusing government stats to be released at favourable intervals to a largely pissed off population. People in need of care and medication are being forced to either pay for themselves or go without and as for education, well I still haven't paid my student debt off after three years, school kinds being coached through exams at age nine rather than engage in meaningfull interaction with the subjects.
The minimum wage is just that, a minimum that does more to justify low pay than eleviate it. Unless im mistaken dosnt EMA pay out £30 a week? Most 16 year olds could earn more than that even in the few, low paid and insecure jobs that are going, of course they dont even get the minimum wage tho until they reach 21.
Maybe the mistakes would include invading Afganistan and Iraq, costing money that could be better spent and the lives of working class soldiers, the true human costs to those involved wont be known for years untill after the emotional wounds of those young men and women have had time to scar over at home.
ID cards, free economic immigration from the EU side by side of government encouraged zenophobia and "war on terror" would also be the mistakes.
But I suppose it's only the middle class who give a shit about any of that, the working class are thanking the day we finally got a Labour government back in 1997.

 

[tbaldwin]

Eh? Massively increased private finance and a corporate culture into health and education that has not lead to any noticable improvement in service to most people. Just makes for confusing government stats to be released at favourable intervals to a largely pissed off population. People in need of care and medication are being forced to either pay for themselves or go without and as for education, well I still haven't paid my student debt off after three years, school kinds being coached through exams at age nine rather than engage in meaningfull interaction with the subjects.
The minimum wage is just that, a minimum that does more to justify low pay than eleviate it. Unless im mistaken dosnt EMA pay out £30 a week? Most 16 year olds could earn more than that even in the few, low paid and insecure jobs that are going, of course they dont even get the minimum wage tho until they reach 21.
Maybe the mistakes would include invading Afganistan and Iraq, costing money that could be better spent and the lives of working class soldiers, the true human costs to those involved wont be known for years untill after the emotional wounds of those young men and women have had time to scar over at home.
ID cards, free economic immigration from the EU side by side of government encouraged zenophobia and "war on terror" would also be the mistakes.
But I suppose it's only the middle class who give a shit about any of that, the working class are thanking the day we finally got a Labour government back in 1997.

Its the middle class voices who control the media who put across the message you are repeating.
The idea that the minimum wage,ema and a massive increase in spending on health and education has not really benefited anyone much is convenient for people who oppose any real hint of redistributive policies.
If you say a lot has been wasted on useless bureacracy and firms and individuals skimming money off the top....fine id agree with you......same as its ever been.
BUT increased spending has made a big difference to the lives of millions of people. Paid for my stem cell transplant keeping me alive for a bit longer so i'm kind of grateful on a personal level....And on a political level i am sad that so many people seem to be going along with the idea that Labour and Tories are the same....its bullshit.

 

[Carousel]

Yeah well, these "redistributive policies" have achieved the precise opposite of what they ostensibly set out to do.

 

[Carousel]

And on a political level i am sad that so many people seem to be going along with the idea that Labour and Tories are the same....its bullshit.

Ok. It's not so much they're the same, more that when in stasis, an arbitrary change can move things. You know, you can improve productivity in an office just by altering the level of the light. Up or down doesn't matter, as long as it changes, people focus. Weird but true. People are tired of Labour and are going to allow them to lose the next election. They don't need to justify or apologise for that. Social justice junkies banging on about the irrelevant traditions and principles bound up in the Labour party just inclines people towards voting Tory out of spite.

 

[Carousel]

i'm kind of grateful on a personal level

Get off your knees comrade.

 

[goosegrease]

Its the middle class voices who control the media who put across the message you are repeating.
The idea that the minimum wage,ema and a massive increase in spending on health and education has not really benefited anyone much is convenient for people who oppose any real hint of redistributive policies.
If you say a lot has been wasted on useless bureacracy and firms and individuals skimming money off the top....fine id agree with you......same as its ever been.
BUT increased spending has made a big difference to the lives of millions of people. Paid for my stem cell transplant keeping me alive for a bit longer so i'm kind of grateful on a personal level....And on a political level i am sad that so many people seem to be going along with the idea that Labour and Tories are the same....its bullshit.

I wish I could agree. When I look around I don't see many working class people willing to defend or vote for the LP because a Tory government would take away any significant gains in terms of their day to day quality of life. What we've had is 11 years of one nation style conservatism from a Labour Party that has for all intent and purpose abandoned the people it once represented.
I think this is partly reflected in the success of the BNP, it's reflected in the popularity of Tories and the middle class led media hasn't got it's work cut out in convincing people that the Labour government isn't doing anything for them.
Speaking as some one who supports the idea of a Labour Party, of a redistributive and progressive political party I find it hard to defend much of what the LP have been doing. I don't think that if we end up with a tory government after the next GE, unfortunately it will be any great loss.

 

[tbaldwin]

I wish I could agree. When I look around I don't see many working class people willing to defend or vote for the LP because a Tory government would take away any significant gains in terms of their day to day quality of life. What we've had is 11 years of one nation style conservatism from a Labour Party that has for all intent and purpose abandoned the people it once represented.
I think this is partly reflected in the success of the BNP, it's reflected in the popularity of Tories and the middle class led media hasn't got it's work cut out in convincing people that the Labour government isn't doing anything for them.
Speaking as some one who supports the idea of a Labour Party, of a redistributive and progressive political party I find it hard to defend much of what the LP have been doing. I don't think that if we end up with a tory government after the next GE, unfortunately it will be any great loss.

You say the LP has to all intent abandoned the people it once represented.
That is a very widely repeated claim.
But this Labour govt increased spending on health and education more than any other Labour govt. They were also the firsto bring in any reform of the house of lords.
The first to ban fox hunting and equalise the age of consent.

I dont know exactly what people were expecting from Blair and New Labour in 1997 if they are genuinelly disappointed.
I never thought they would be as good as i think they have turned out to be.

If you look at the history of Labour in power they have never really lived up to the promises they made or the expectations of their supporters.

 

[Carousel]

You say the LP has to all intent abandoned the people it once represented.

Well, "the people" aren't inclined to evaluate or design social policy technically. Their voting decisions are based on emotion. In so far as some, at least, properly visualise outcomes - they've no idea how to bring it about in terms of processes, and so trust self appointed experts to do it for them.

But this Labour govt increased spending on health and education more than any other Labour govt. They were also the firsto bring in any reform of the house of lords.
The first to ban fox hunting and equalise the age of consent.

There aren't marks for effort. Principle means nothing. Outcome is all.

 

[tbaldwin]

Well, "the people" aren't inclined to evaluate or design social policy technically. Their voting decisions are based on emotion. In so far as some, at least, properly visualise outcomes - they've no idea how to bring it about in terms of processes, and so trust self appointed experts to do it for them.

There aren't marks for effort. Principle means nothing. Outcome is all.

Yeah well the outcomes of all Labour governments have been preety mixed. But i dont think any have been better than the present one. Which makes me think that people who go on about how Labour has abandoned people have just got it a bit rong.

 

[Carousel]

Yeah. That I agree with. The idea of some golden age of Labour is a myth. The idea of abandonment or betrayal is just a personality trait of those that gravitate to leftist ideology. Part of their victim mentality. At least they're not "grateful". It could be worse.

 

[goosegrease]

I don't claim that the LP had some "golden age". The party has lost much of the base it had in working class communities in the past though. I remember their being genuine and widespread enthusiasm for the LP from working class communities through out the 80's and 90's. One of my earliest memories is having a red vote labour hat stuck on my head and walking around the town shouting "vote labour" at people in the street. Encouraged by the adults of course. You have to look very hard to find that kind of support for them these days.
I'm probly in danger of over simplifying here but I do see more than just a hint "old labourism" in BNP supporters and sympathisers today. I came across more ex life Labour voters expressing support for them in the run up to the local and euro elections than supporting the Tories.

 

[Carousel]

You have to look very hard to find that kind of support for them these days.

I'm inclined to agree with that as well. What the chattering classes regard as apathy or indifference is actually an advance in our level of political sophistication and the break down of traditional morality. Celebrity culture and fashionable self-esteem raising in sundry media has taken the sin out of flamboyant individualism. The core that never dug that scene are prime fodder for the BNP. Technically, there's nothing between UK 30's fascism, one-nation-toryism and old-labour as any Moselyite will attest. It's a matter of emotional vibes and traditional sentiment as much as anything. As people attempt to maintain internal consistency of belief over time. Irrationally, changing one beliefs is dishonourable for many. When necessity demands it, they'll keep it secret.

 

[shagnasty]

When i was a labour activist taking numbers at the polling booth ,you could see the fear of a tory government on the faces of the old voters, they used to welcome you with your red rossette but not now though nu labour frightens people as much as the tories

 

[The39thStep]

The work outlined in the o/p looks like it is going to be funded by extending the brief for Preventing Violent Extremism monies from Islamic extremism to white far right extremism. This was a position argued by a number of people in local govt at the time but resisted by DCLG and the Home Office. Depends on whats left in the pot as Blears et al at the time they were in office certaintly had the horse whip out on why local authorities weren't spending their full allocations.

The PVe pot attracted consultants by the score , what role then for Searchlight if this money is now available?

 

[JimPage]

The work outlined in the o/p looks like it is going to be funded by extending the brief for Preventing Violent Extremism monies from Islamic extremism to white far right extremism....

... what role then for Searchlight if this money is now available?

I can see searchlight putting in their bids for some funding very soon indeed for their propoganda efforts.