Minimising BNP seats in London

[articul8]

As history shows, its apathy that lets the fascist in.

Surely history shows more than that - that it takes a ruling class which actively begins to rest upon fascists to prevent a militant working class disturbing their privilege.

As important as exposing the BNP undoubtedly is, we aren't in the 1930s or anything like it. We might be seeing the emergence of a significant populist party of the far right (which needs to be combatted politically), but we are miles from the emergence of a mass fascist party.

 

[JimPage]

Agreed, but if they were to get in on the GLA, it would be a significant building block for them to turn into a mass party

 

[Meltingpot]

Agreed, but if they were to get in on the GLA, it would be a significant building block for them to turn into a mass party

The easiest way forward IMO is to expose their antisemitism. It's blatantly dishonest for a party whose leading ranks deny the Holocaust to be targeting Jewish votes.

 

[butchersapron]

How many Jewish people vote BNP?

 

[Meltingpot]

How many Jewish people vote BNP?

They make much about the fact that they've got a Jewish councillor.

 

[dylanredefined]

Yes, several times, and in 2 of the last 3 by elections casued by their councillors resigning mid term ( in Havering and Epping Forest) they retained their seats.

Oh I didn't know that ?Have they managed to do anything particulary maligant as councillors or are they acting as proper counciliors ?We had someone in our ward last time think he got 7 or 8 votes .

 

[Fisher_Gate]

A similar phenomena took place in Tower Hamlets when the BNP won a seat briefly in the 90s. A huge effort was made to mobilise a vote for anyone but the BNP, and they did indeed lose the seat. But ... what people didn't grasp was that the BNP share of the vote actually rose among people pissed off with the labour council.

This is completely wrong. The by-election was in 1993, the subsequent election in 1994. On a factual point, it was a Liberal Democrat council not a Labour one during this period (1986-94). The BNP proportion of the vote rose in 1994 mainly because they stood more candidates (double up from 4 in 1990 to 8 in 1998). In every ward where they stood in 1994. the Labour vote also increased.

The detailed results are here:
http://www.election.demon.co.uk/thbc/thbc.html

 

[butchersapron]

They make much about the fact that they've got a Jewish councillor.

They might well do - but they've not really any Jewish voters. Concentrating on that section would be wasted effort. See also asia/black voters. They're not voting BNP and don't need telling not to.

 

[durruti02]

yes if i were one of their strategists this would play into my hands. I would say>> look we're not just a small party we're a threat to all the rest from the far left to the capitalist right, don't you think we're worth at least checking out?

yes that is the case .. the vote anyone to keep them out is a disasterous strategy

 

[durruti02]

and i find it ironic this sudden burst of electoral energy .. why not vote lib dem to kick out the warmongers? or as KBJ says the toff to kick out the crook? the bnp are very unpleasant but imho it is the city of london that is the real evil and many many other authorities labour and tory who make many peoples a misery .. who has created 50% BME youth unemployment in london? who created the situation that BME kids can not afford anywhere to live? is it the BNP? no .. so we have to deal with the roots NOT just the symptoms

 

[pingupete]

Seriously though, every vote ups the turnout and makes it harder for them to get in, and you have a choice of two socialist GLA lists, Left List and Unity for Peace and Socialism to vote for (Galloways list doesn`t count). Every vote will count at this election.

Searchlight for once get it right- turnout is the Key. If turnout can be pushed up anywhere pver 50%, the BNP will not get in

Jim's point is good. Turnout is the first issue, but the second point also has to be dealt with - who do you vote for?

The best anti-BNP vote is for those parties that will get 5% plus, and however sceptical you are of Searchlight, you can investigate the way the list elections work and draw your own conclusions. No one with realistic expectations think the Left List, Peace and Socialism or Respect Renewal will get 5% support (those that do probably thought a united Respect would get 5% in 2004 and were disappointed back then).

If you can't or won't vote for Greens, Lib Dems or Labour (I think the Tory readership here is nearly nonexistant), who will all definitely get more than 5% on the Assembly list, and have done in the previous two elections, then it is better to vote for one of the socialist lists than not vote at all. But to put it quite simply, if you are thinking of voting for the Left List, Peace & Socialist or Respect Renewal be aware that every vote for a small party gaining less than 5% is good news for the BNP.

I hope turnout is 50% plus, the BNP threat is overrated, and they fail to win a seat. But if they get 7% or more and they scrape a 2nd seat, the additional resources and staff they will get from London Assembly will give Nick Griffin the media platform and national electoral credibility he needs to win a Euro seat in 2009.

Vote Left List, Peace & Socialist or Respect Renewal at a constituency level and/or for 1st preference for mayor, but use your Assembly list vote realistically, and try and keep the BNP presence in London to a minimum. If the BNP win 2 or more seats on May 1st, anyone who misses the best chance they had to stop that happening will have four years to kick themselves, but it will be no consolation to ordinary Londoners.

 

[thelibrarian]

Jim's point is good. Turnout is the first issue, but the second point also has to be dealt with - who do you vote for?


I hope turnout is 50% plus, the BNP threat is overrated, and they fail to win a seat. But if they get 7% or more and they scrape a 2nd seat, the additional resources and staff they will get from London Assembly will give Nick Griffin the media platform and national electoral credibility he needs to win a Euro seat in 2009.

nah only briefly until they stymie themselves by falling out. A BNP step forward anywhere has always been followed by a self detonation through internal strife. If they get two seats then I give them six months max before at least one of their electees is expelled and the other announces a breakaway party.

 

[butchersapron]

nah only briefly until they stymie themselves by falling out. A BNP step forward anywhere has always been followed by a self detonation through internal strife.

How are they here today then?

 

[thelibrarian]

How are they here today then?

Trust me on it. I'm older than you

Look at the two that formed the freedom party and the guy who led the Burnely breakthrough of 2002. And of course the Bradford branch was looking dangerously successful at one point not to mention Sharon something in Birmingham was briefly winning plaudits from black constituents. Sadie Graham was the party's overall best white hope. The latter shows that for whatever reason articulate, dedicated, successful, photogenic candidates can expect a shortened career when it comes to the far right.

 

[thelibrarian]

oh of course the previous treasurer of course, had to go. I think he smacked of too much like competence and professional integrity.

It makes me wonder why the serious left feels it has to bother with the party

 

[butchersapron]

Trust me on it. I'm older than you

Look at the two that formed the freedom party and the guy who led the Burnely breakthrough of 2002. And of course the Bradford branch was looking dangerously successful at one point not to mention Sharon something in Birmingham was briefly winning plaudits from black constituents. Sadie Graham was the party's overall best white hope. The latter shows that for whatever reason articulate, dedicated, successful, photogenic candidates can expect a shortened career when it comes to the far right.

I wouldn't be so sure. And answer the question - if it's a series of minor wins followed by knockbacks then tell me how they're grown - in terms of votes, candidates and normalisation and by such a huge number.

The experience of the Freedom Party demonstrated that the BNP is the only show in town. I like the Bradford brach stuff straight from Nick Lowles last month

 

[butchersapron]

oh of course the previous treasurer of course, had to go. I think he smacked of too much like competence and professional integrity.

It makes me wonder why the serious left feels it has to bother with the party

You're amazing - like a far-right winger spewing searchlight stuff.

 

[thelibrarian]

I wouldn't be so sure. And answer the question - if it's a series of minor wins followed by knockbacks then tell me how they're grown - in terms of votes, candidates and normalisation and by such a huge number.

The experience of the Freedom Party demonstrated that the BNP is the only show in town. I like the Bradford brach stuff straight from Nick Lowles last month

Nick knowles sod off lol. I was watching that progarmme about BNP women and it featured Nick Cass and his pretty wife. I thought gosh he's coming over pretty well - he's likable and will be popular in the community -his career in the BNP is doomed surely. And guess what?- before the programme even ended he found out he'rd been relieved of his position. christ you couldn't make it more laughable.

What is your question -why do they still exist? Well they exist in reduced size from last year for a start. And just imagine if they had kept all the activists and dedicated organisers that they've seeminly kami kazi style bloodletted one way or another down the years. They would have broken through in multiple areas.

 

[butchersapron]

Nick knowles sod off lol. I was watching that progarmme about BNP women and it featured Nick Cass and his pretty wife. I thought gosh he's coming over pretty well - he's likable and will be popular in the community -his career in the BNP is doomed surely. And guess what?- before the programme even ended he found out he'rd been relieved of his position. christ you couldn't make it more laughable.

What is your question -why do they still exist? Well they exist in reduced size from last year for a start. And just imagine if they had kept all the activists and dedicated organisers that they've seeminly kami kazi style bloodletted one way or another down the years. They would have broken through in multiple areas.

No my question was why are they expanding - despite a few petty internal battles? Reduced size? You sure? Being able to double their candidates from the 2004 cycle and getting 15% results as normal. No, i don't think they're reduced in size, influence or reach.

 

[thelibrarian]

No my question was why are they expanding - despite a few petty internal battles? Reduced size? You sure? Being able to double their candidates from the 2004 cycle and getting 15% results as normal. No, i don't think they're reduced in size, influence or reach.

yeah but their candidates are down on last year. I suppose they're expanding vote wise and normalisation wise, because people are more pissed off that immigration is continuing at 190,000 or so a year even though the country is visibly becoming ever more over crowded. Like searchlight says they can do well inspite of themselves in the present climate.

 

[thelibrarian]

I mean for god's sake there's no one trying harder for them not to do well than they themselves.

 

[butchersapron]

yeah but their candidates are down on last year. I suppose they're expanding vote wise and normalisation wise, because people are more pissed off that immigration is continuing at 190,000 or so a year even though the country is visibly becoming ever more over crowded. Like searchlight says they can do well inspite of themselves in the present climate.

Their candiates are *barely* down on last year, and this time they're in the breakout 2004 seats. What does that say about your sceanraio of they get elected then dissapear? Nothing to worry about?

Just out yourself as a far-righter. oh, you just did.

 

[butchersapron]

I mean for god's sake there's no one trying harder for them not to do well than they themselves.

Eh?

 

[thelibrarian]

Their candiates are *barely* down on last year, and this time they're in the breakout 2004 seats. What does that say about your sceanraio of they get elected then dissapear? Nothing to worry about?

Just out yourself as a far-righter. oh, you just did.

because I've said the country is becoming visibly overcrowded? Do you find train carriages with empty seats boring or something?

 

[butchersapron]

because I've said the country is becoming visibly overcrowded? Do you find train carriages with empty seats boring or something?

Ok, you're not a far-righter. Happy?

 

[thelibrarian]

Eh?

there's a pattern in these matters. Ukip have imploded, Respect have fallen out among themselves. AFA had its malcontents who from time to time would try to start a thing going for a new splinter group. The breakaway groups formed by BNP rebels seem similar to AFA rebel groups- they always peter out very quickly and don't seem to engage in any activity except supiciously just set up a web site heavily critical of the party they split from and try and attract as many people as they can away from the party they've broken from. Or what do you reckon? and Griffin for example why is he taking sadie garham and co to court at the time of a high porfile election effort: the rebellion is fizzling out why is he preversely trying to breath new life into it? Does it make sense to you?

 

[butchersapron]

there's a pattern in these matters. Ukip have imploded, Respect have fallen out among themselves. AFA had its malcontents who from time to time would try to start a thing going for a new splinter group. The breakaway groups formed by BNP rebels seem similar to AFA rebel groups- they always peter out very quickly and don't seem to engage in any activity except set up a web site heavily critical of the party they split from. Or what do you reckon?

I reckon you need to update your files old man.

 

[thelibrarian]

I reckon you need to update your files old man.

No seriously it reminds me of the camp batman movies of the sixties. Whenever the vilains threw a net anywhere near batman and robin they would always deliberately get snaggled up in it and really even as a kid you thought it was daft because you could tell they were deliberately getting as snagglled up in it as possible even though they' were supposedly trying to wrestle themselves free. The BNP splits seem very similar. for a start you'rd have expected a normal party to have avoided the fall out with graham it's most talented member in the first place, but with a split having taken place oyu're expect them to play it down and move on as quickly as possible. Instead it seems when there's any possibility of dissent the leadership and all concerned seem to wade in absolutely preversely trying to make as much of it as possible as though they delight in it. It was the same with the Tyndall business that caused the fall out iwth the burnely branch.It only seems to need the slightest hint of disagreement or an internal dispute and the party seems to become as willfully entangled as possible with everyone trying to make as much of everyhting to do with it as they can. Let's burgle her computer for good measure, oh dear it seems to eb dying a death now, never mind let's start a court case- why let it lie- there must be some more life to be got out of it...

Am I wrong?.

 

[butchersapron]

I don't know - it depends on what you're actually saying. Can you help us out?

 

[thelibrarian]

lol. well basically take the tyndall dispute in Burnely. Now Burnely was their most successful branch by a mile at the time. Now tyndall a party member was invited to speak there at their meeting. Him being an orator of sorts not too surprising. Anyway Nick Griffin was in dispute with Tyndall at the time and felt this was a snub to him personally. Nonetheless he could have simply reacted to this event with a shrug of his shoulders. But he seems to have wracked his brain to come up with a way of making as much of the matter as possible. Hence instead of just forgetting it- he did what?- expelled everyone in his most successful branch?