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Or don't get enough votes in this case.
Rather than mentioning an Oedipus complex for the IWCA's failure, you might want to examine their politics for where the fault line exists.
Militant Anti-fascists turned over the BPP Victoria meeting
- Thread starter e19896
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Or don't get enough votes in this case.
Rather than mentioning an Oedipus complex for the IWCA's failure, you might want to examine their politics for where the fault line exists.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
Electra complex
Nigel
For A Degenerates' Workers State
Never really worked out where the brother Orestes came/comes into the equation?
lights.out.london
Black Flag
Jesus. Wept.
The Black Hand
Unclean
lights.out.london
Black Flag
I think it might help if they tried speaking to non-politicised folk (who ever they may be) in plain language without the politico-babble and jargon. I'm not sure it's arrogance, per se. Just poor communication with da masses...
agreed and why I moved on from the old anti fascist actions, antifa has come about due the realisation of this truth (forgive me replying late been on the streets in Maltby) and yes we should be organising door to door and if need be stand it works we have to hard line anti fascist on the council in Doncaster as green council ours and three in Sheffield. Of course it is shame we have to go Green not IWCA but it is a means to an end, the same use as force when there is a need I do not celebrate this need, but do understand it very much so needed as is the the need of organising door to door...
fair play but i am now confused .. you appearred to start the thread celebrating a report of what imho is a utter waste of time ..
The Black Hand
Unclean
no is not, and neither should we celebrate the need for force but understand that need and then we do not become thugs looking for our next political kick and seeing the whole world as fucked up..
at the age of 43 i have learned my lessons the hard way i can tell, but i will not move from being and using militant anti facsit actions, there is a need and please do not feel i celebrate the use of force. no i understand the very real need.
i have been in maltby for a couple of days, better on the streets finding out what happened and why then hearing some lefty bullocks as to why the working class feel shafted. we know why dear lefty, we know why dear government what ever colour you proclaim to be. neither are in the interest of the working class, and sadly the people of maltby found a voice in the far right it was a protest vote.
this is not to negate the hard work we face but check out this from my inbox this morning
There is always hope it is called anarchism..
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Aside from my prejudices towards any one who actually writes 'da masses' have you ever come across the IWCA at all, ever read anything of theirs? If you did I would be interested in how you come to such a conclusion.
ska invita
back on the other side
Interesting thread - especially as I'm reading this at the mo, and the issue of political violence has been on my mind a lot the last year:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=118803727
...it's not a thoroughly convincing case for militant anti-fascism, but a passionate and self-righteous one. In the book it's pretty clear that the fighting is an adrenalin-addiction backed up by a fevered moralilty. Fcourse you cant help but sympathise with these steel-toe capped crusaders, and no doubt it takes a shit lot of guts (though the criticism of 'macho bullshit' isn't utterly void), but whether its really necessary remains far from clear, and I cant help but feel that is probably isnt really.
Overall it seems like its violence for violence sake - when your dealing with scum fascists it's better just to win the intellectual argument: it shouldn't be hard to do... in fact, when is it ever easier?
Going back to the book, the 70's were a different age, so somehow violent anti-fascism all seems to make more sense back in that context - they were violent times all round. Not to say that there isnt a real threat to antifascists from fascists today, there is, and particularly in places like Russia. Basically Im pretty convinced that nonviolent methods are just as good, if not better, in almost all situations, so I guess my response is to be expected.
Talking of books and that, this book which i read a couple of months back probably makes the most convincing case for nonviolent action:
http://www.extendinghorizons.com/images/WNS_cover_for_web.jpg
I recommend it highly - I think its important to really get into the case for violence vs. nonviolence and make up your own mind. Peter Gelderloos' How Nonviolence Protects the State didnt really convince me...
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=118803727
...it's not a thoroughly convincing case for militant anti-fascism, but a passionate and self-righteous one. In the book it's pretty clear that the fighting is an adrenalin-addiction backed up by a fevered moralilty. Fcourse you cant help but sympathise with these steel-toe capped crusaders, and no doubt it takes a shit lot of guts (though the criticism of 'macho bullshit' isn't utterly void), but whether its really necessary remains far from clear, and I cant help but feel that is probably isnt really.
Overall it seems like its violence for violence sake - when your dealing with scum fascists it's better just to win the intellectual argument: it shouldn't be hard to do... in fact, when is it ever easier?
Going back to the book, the 70's were a different age, so somehow violent anti-fascism all seems to make more sense back in that context - they were violent times all round. Not to say that there isnt a real threat to antifascists from fascists today, there is, and particularly in places like Russia. Basically Im pretty convinced that nonviolent methods are just as good, if not better, in almost all situations, so I guess my response is to be expected.
Talking of books and that, this book which i read a couple of months back probably makes the most convincing case for nonviolent action:
http://www.extendinghorizons.com/images/WNS_cover_for_web.jpg
I recommend it highly - I think its important to really get into the case for violence vs. nonviolence and make up your own mind. Peter Gelderloos' How Nonviolence Protects the State didnt really convince me...
Interesting thread - especially as I'm reading this at the mo, and the issue of political violence has been on my mind a lot the last year:
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=118803727
...it's not a thoroughly convincing case for militant anti-fascism, but a passionate and self-righteous one. In the book it's pretty clear that the fighting is an adrenalin-addiction backed up by a fevered moralilty. Fcourse you cant help but sympathise with these steel-toe capped crusaders, and no doubt it takes a shit lot of guts (though the criticism of 'macho bullshit' isn't utterly void), but whether its really necessary remains far from clear, and I cant help but feel that is probably isnt really.
Overall it seems like its violence for violence sake - when your dealing with scum fascists it's better just to win the intellectual argument: it shouldn't be hard to do... in fact, when is it ever easier?
Going back to the book, the 70's were a different age, so somehow violent anti-fascism all seems to make more sense back in that context - they were violent times all round. Not to say that there isnt a real threat to antifascists from fascists today, there is, and particularly in places like Russia. Basically Im pretty convinced that nonviolent methods are just as good, if not better, in almost all situations, so I guess my response is to be expected.
Talking of books and that, this book which i read a couple of months back probably makes the most convincing case for nonviolent action:
http://www.extendinghorizons.com/images/WNS_cover_for_web.jpg
I recommend it highly - I think its important to really get into the case for violence vs. nonviolence and make up your own mind. Peter Gelderloos' How Nonviolence Protects the State didnt really convince me...
good books well worth a read some of the south Yorkshire former class war lot have been meeting talking plotting walking in Doncaster and hugging trees, not sure what we looked like when we was out in about.. We are planing some propaganda, perhaps a book and a little bit of anti fascist stuff of course..
now you thought we had all gone home to daytime tv, this is not 1984 we are a little older but up for a little fun see you on the streets..
lights.out.london
Black Flag
That's alright, sweetie. You just sit there with your prejudices.
Hoxtontwat
New Member
Bless Uncle Martin! Its not a thoroughly convincing case for anything. More like an inventory of all the fights he ever had. You gotta love it though
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
what, the IWCA?!
what are you on mate, the most plain speaking left group of all time. And let's drop this posthumous stuff eh? The IWCA are in a downturn but are still around and still streets ahead of the rest of the left on a host of issues. The fact they have managed to unite nay-sayers from the mad anarchist to headbanging trotskyist traditions is only testament to the fact they still micturate up them from a vast, vast height.
lights.out.london
Black Flag
Don't get it - posthumous stuff? 
Yup. They're so good at engaging that even your own post concedes they're in a down turn.
Yup. They're so good at engaging that even your own post concedes they're in a down turn.
Taxamo Welf
kebagels pls
referring to the IWCA as if they were dead and gone.Don't get it - posthumous stuff?
at what point did i say the only measure of success should be getting the message across or that the IWCA was in a downturn because it had failed to do so?
Also: everyone is in a downturn. I don't think the IWCA's tactics have been used widely enough to write them off.
lights.out.london
Black Flag
I'm not sure I've suggested that they're dead and gone?
You'll note that I'm not criticising (in this thread) the well-meant and wholly understandable aims of the IWCA. I can't remember where I was going with the post that you (and someone else) picked up. But my point is that engagement with people and the delivery of the message is vital to success. If the message is wrong or misunderstood then don't expect to swell your (their) ground support.
Communication is as good as the response you receive. If the IWCA is in a downturn...maybe there in lies your answer?
The Black Hand
Unclean
That is evidence of the stupidity, ignorance and irrelevance of their theory. The fact that in 15 years they have gone nowhere, and in recent years, even in their own backyard (Loss of 50% ie. 2 council seats in Blackbird leys) have gone from a slight decline into a vertical drop off the cliff. Their failure to widely apply their preffered strategy IS evidence of its non applicability within that wider world. That is not to say that everything about them (though in some terms it does) is wrong, even a broken clock is right twice a day. The point is to take the better bits and dump the rest - such as the arrogance/purism/failure to work with other even slightly political humans beyond their ghetto etc.
They offer the working class movement nothing but irrelevant purism and a self inflicted cul de sac [dead end]...
lights.out.london
Black Flag
^ tick tock, tick tock. 
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Unlike the bright shiny highway that you have shown us that will take us to the stars and back
The Black Hand
Unclean
The Black Hand
Unclean
^ tick tock, tick tock.
^??? Nothing to say?
lights.out.london
Black Flag
I'm still trying to digest how there can't be a problem with the message or with the means of communication, yet the IWCA is in a downturn? Bizarre, quite frankly.
http://www.iwca.info/manifesto/
e2a - ^ sums it up, really.
http://www.iwca.info/manifesto/
e2a - ^ sums it up, really.
The Black Hand
Unclean
True that website is a fuck up.
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
That's an old link:
http://www.iwca.info/?page_id=1400
is where the manifesto will be when the update has finished.
The Black Hand
Unclean
underclassriseing are a mixed bunch, between us we represent most of the various 'flavours' of anarchism; Class War, anarcho-syndicalists, eco-anarchists, Marxist-autonomists, Stirnerites, Tolstoyans, mutual-aiders, punks, etc. We meet for drinks, parties, walks, discussion (OK, fights) and activism on a (sometimes) regular basis.
We come out of class war (South Yorkshire) green anarchist various left groups and become pissed of with the iwca we guessed it was time to self organise and get active here is our home underclasrising.wordpress.com (not on line as we need to pontificate more over the content)
We don't think that a website is ever going to change the world and we'd encourage anyone living in South Yorkshire to get off their arse and get physically involved in anarchist politics. If you'd like to find out more about the underclassrising or anarchism in general then get in touch..
We take our thoughts actions from The IWCA, and like the rest of The Anarchist political left there is no relevance to the everyday struggle of the working class, we are not saying we are the solution. But a point in South Yorkshire where people can meet talk and get active all to often our actions against the far right have been isolated and to some extent a little self indulgent, if we are going to move on then we need to forget the past.
Something The IWCA seem unwilling to do, you ask me how many working class who have become active do not have a history reputation, so why should this be a problem in desiring to get involved in The IWCA, yet it remains and this might be the cause of there down turn, as it is with many anarchist and lefty's, simple the working class stand fuck all of a chance with this vanguard of moralisation about how and what motivates the Working Class into action.
The continued snipes from the likes of Attica (who i do respect) and sectarianism of anarchism far more than you find lefty politics serves us no good, but serves the far right and those who uphold and use the far right to keep our class separated of the grounds of race.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Bit confusing this as as I understand it the IWCA don't go looking for ex lefties to recruit but actually canvass and recruit supporters amongst local people.
