Discussion in 'music, bands, clubs & festies' started by Buddy Bradley, May 17, 2018.
As a Marxist I would think you would be interested in the very question of popularity?
We obviously have different opinions regarding 'SoS' - but maybe you should consider your response posted otherwise.
(Also, I was replying to Athos, not killer b).
Strangely enough, last night I went for dinner with my folks and my mum stuck this on. It's a fab album.
That's reminded me: I'm still wondering why my comment on the relationship between popularity and snobbery elicited that non sequitur from Beats & Pieces
Maybe we'll just never know.
ETA: My dad wasn't always very nice but he listened to jazz when was happy and in a good mood. He travelled for work and, if we could hear Miles Davis blaring out of his car as he turned into the street, it meant we were in for a good weekend. If we just heard the sound of his car over the cobbles, we weren't.
I still can't stand silence.
Mixed emotions reading that, trashpony.
Exactly how I feel looking back at my childhood. It was amazing and awful in pretty equal measures. A bipolar parent isn't that fun IME.
But that is nothing to do with pinkmonkey's recollections of her dad
I wasn't replying to you DLR.
Kind of Blue is just....
I will always remember the first time I saw the black & white film of a studio performance of So What.
The album is always nearby.
We were fortunate enough to sit in a bar and watch the sun set and dip into the sea, while Sketches of Spain played in the background in Menorca a couple of years back. I have hairs tingling on my neck remembering the perfection of it.
I also saw Stevie Wonder opening with All Blues at his concert at the Dome, saying we must always remember where and with who it all started.
Well, inspired by this thread I'm going to give KoB a "go" on Spotify
So far (30 seconds in) it's not really working for me . . . but that is a very very short amount to listen to, I'll admit - but it's going to have to kick it up a gear, for my music tastes,
I'm not really a fan of this kind of jazz - some of the stuff my dad used to listen to when I was younger (big band music, blues and honky tonk) wasn't too bad but the more modern jazz I find a lot more challenging
Still - it's costing me nothing so let's give it a whirl
30 seconds in you've just about finished the amorphous intro that Paul Chambers and Bill Evans do for So What. Chambers is just about to introduce the main riff.
What's your thoughts now you've heard more?
That intro - I fucking LOVE it.
Just listening to it as I come across this post!
It's not really working for me - but I'll have it on in the background for a bit and see if it's a "grower"
I'll never trash anyone's music as it should be really important to them - but . . . I have "limited" time to listen to this as the second that Mrs Voltz walks through the door then this will HAVE TO COME OFF - she's not quite so tolerant of Jazz as I am - which is surprising because her taste in music is wide and varied - but Jazz really pushes her buttons and not in a good way
What you have to remember about KoB is that it was a seismic moment for music, it was an instant classic and it sold big time even from non jazz fans. That was also a bit of a curse for Miles, it was too popular....
If you don't get this track.....i just don't know, the Davis / Evans moment
Ah well, modern jazz obviously isn't for you. At the moment at least. Because I do think there's an element of getting to know the "language" of a music. You said other types of jazz 'aren't as bad', or words to that effect. Maybe if you spend time with the jazz you do like you'll get to a point where maybe you could get to KoB. Maybe via Louis Armstrong, then Ellington, and then Birth of the Cool.
Or maybe you just won't ever like it.
Me too. Here's a suggestion for an addition, recorded the year before KoB
Yes, I love that.
I can't get into jazz like Davis AT ALL. It's good and everything, as a noise, but I dunno. I find it hard to pick up the melodies, they (and the key signatures) seem to change too much. I'm sure as Danny says it's a case of learning the language but I've never been able to. I feel the same about all the jazz people have insisted I listen to because this one will make you get it for sure - Parker, Lester Young, Dizzy, Coltrane, Monk, Mingus, etc. I can't seem to go any more far out than, say, Chet Baker, swing and big band stuff. I must be more about the simple repetition rather than the subtle refrain.
I wouldn't ever promise that this one will make you get it for sure, but I'd strongly recommend going and hearing jazz played live - I think being able to see the interplay between the musicians makes the language much more explicit and understandable.
Chet Baker was pretty far out sometimes mind - did you hear that piece he did with Terry Riley?
I've only ever seen jazz live a couple of times - once (a few acts) when I roadied at the Cleethorpes jazz festival in 1989 and ten years later when I saw a Czech band, Robert Baltar Trio, in Prague. It IS different and easier to appreciate what's going on, but it doesn't make it more memorable for all that.
I've not heard any weirder Baker stuff, mainly just the stuff where he sings and plays a bit of trumpet.
Difficult to generalise meaningfully, because his music is so varied, but it's probably true to say that Miles' music is rarely just about the melody. Maybe that's a legacy of his early days in Be-bop, which was (partly) about taking a melody and then exploring it in various ways, sometimes to the extent that the original melody becomes all but unrecognisable.
As an example, here's a slightly later than KoB recording with largely the same musicians, a cover of a song with a simple melody from the Disney film Snow White
The actual melody starts at about 0.40, but most of the track is Miles, Coltrane and Wynton Kelly improvising around the melody, with Miles briefly restating it a couple of times and then further exploration/improvisation.
If you're familiar with the original melody, you can (at least I can) still "hear" the melody in the improvisions, but to me it's more interesting and rewards repeated listening to hear this than just a simple run through of the melody.
Maybe someone with a better grasp of the technicalities of what they're doing can describe or explain it further...
Yup, this is the issue for people who aren't into it. It's really just a matter of not knowing what's going on.
The thing about music is that although people like to be surprised and challenged, they don't like to be so surprised and challenged that there's nothing for them to hold onto. The balance between novelty and familiarity actually has to be firmly in favour of familiarity, whatever we like to think about our own sophistication.
The language of jazz from New Orleans to Hard Bop is that you start with a melody. Then you play the same chord sequence and over that chord sequence you use agreed harmonic conventions to make new melodies. This is where people not used to the language get lost: where has the melody gone? What's happening now?
Well, actually, if you can tune out the melody instrument and listen to the rhythm section, they're still playing the same chord sequence, round and round. If you can whistle the original melody you can still follow the chords. (Each cycle of chord changes is called a "chorus" by jazzers, whether or not it's a verse. They're like that).
This is easiest to hear with Louis Armstrong. He'll play the melody, then next time change it a bit, then a bit more and if it's his last chorus he'll show off a bit.
His exact quote is:
"The first chorus I play the melody. The second chorus I play the melody round the melody. Then I routines".
OK, in an attempt to demonstrate the principles, I've recorded the chords to the first bit of Unchained Melody, then double tracked myself first playing that section of the melody, then outlining the common notes, then the arpeggios, then, disregarding where the bars start and stop, playing bebop type harmonic lines until I run out of track to follow. The rhythm doesn't swing because I wanted to keep something familiar in order to demonstrate the principles.
This. I think it's fair to say that, in terms of the "language" of jazz, I speak pidgin jazz. I'm more au fait with the blues creole.
Separate names with a comma.