Mike Tyson, greatest fighter that ever lived!

[DexterTCN]

This gentleman, a certain Mr Royce Gracie, would have Tyson tapping out in a matter of minutes, I reckon:

Really? With no ears?

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Bert Sugar helped devise this list of the best Heavyweights of all time.

Ali
Louis
Dempsey
Johnson
Tunney
Marciano
Charles
Foreman
Frazier
Holmes

He had Holyfield at 11, Tyson at 14 and Lewis at 19

Burt Sugar for anyone who doesn't know is a boxing historian, some say the best, but personally I tend to find myself disagreeing with a lot of his lists.

Thing for me I guess is that after Ali and Tyson there's a list of about a further 10 all of whom could have beaten the other on their day. Personally I rank Lennox third.

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

Lennox Lewis did beat Tyson.

Yeah - but that was a much much later Tyson (2002). How would Lewis have done against the Tyson of the late 80s?

It's one of the most fascinating questions for me...

 

[upsidedownwalrus]

To add to the mix....

Its all subjective I suppose, though for me..

#1 (Sugar) Ray Robinson 179 wins, 19 losses, 6 draws, 2 no contests, 109 KO
even Ali said he was the greatest ever....

#2 Archie Moore - 181 wins, 24 losses, 9 draws and 1 no contest, 145 KO
No pro has knocked out as many....

#3 Roy Jones Jr - 49 wins, 3 losses, 38 KO
becoming a champion at middleweight all the way up to heavyweight...
he even won a championship fight after playing paid basketball the same day...

with Ali somewhere there abouts too....

Yeah I was just thinking heavyweights rather than all time pfpers.

I'd agree it's SRR, Ali, RJJ, hard to choose...

 

[Bakunin]

James J Braddock, the famous 'Cinderella Man' would make the list, not so much for his boxing but for his heart and courage both in and outside the ring.

He was labelled by Joe Louis (who took the title from him, IIRC) as the bravest man he'd ever fought.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Tyson was an excellent fighter, but he lost every fight he had to anyone who (a) was a fighter with top level skills and (b) stood up to him. Every single one.

He completely dominated a weak division, and looked awesome in the process, but you just can't look past that uncomfortable fact when you are assessing him.

 

[Numbers]

What he done at such a young age was pretty phenomenal.

When you look at this video, Sugar Ray Robinson: Pound for Pound - when you see the difference in what SRR was like at 19 at the Golden Gloves, and think how Tyson was and what he was doing at the same age/year later winning the world Heavyweight.

http://www.megavideo.com/?v=U8F5D1SW

^^ well worth a watch, it's an hour and a half +

 

[Numbers]

The sweet science of boxing has undergone many changes.

It would be sufficient to say that the sport of boxing has its origins in the forms of hand to hand combat derived from the ancient civilizations of Egypt, Greece, and Rome. The earliest forms of pugilism arrived on the British Isles when the Romans conquered them in the first century. The first recorded history of boxing as a public spectacle began in 18th century England. The typical early boxing matches were fought bare knuckles and were no holds barred contests that included wrestling. A circle of spectators formed the "ring". There was no referee, no rounds, and no time limit. It was a brutal affair with the object to fight until one man was finished, unable to continue he would give up. Bouts routinely lasted for hours and NO tactic was forbidden including, gouging, choking, throwing, and kicking. For many decades no consideration was given to the weight of opponents and there was no official recognition of champions or challengers.

Fisticuffs as a sport began primarily amongst the working class in the British Isles sometimes as a way to settle a dispute. But as the bare knuckle fights gained in popularity the upper classes and even royalty took notice. Wealthy patrons sponsored fighters with cash prizes, built small arenas, and opened schools were the "noble art of self defense" was taught. The ring soon became a square permanently enclosed with wooden rails or a heavy rope.

Boxing's first recognized champion was James Figg who built his Amphitheatre and became the first recognized "boxing champion" in 1719. Figg is largely responsible for the popularity of the sport, as he traveled around England giving sparring exhibitions. Figg died in 1740 and George Taylor one of his pupils succeeded his championship. Jack Broughton, who is the father of “boxing rules”, succeeded Taylor. In 1734 he formed the first boxing code, which forbid eye gouging and hitting a fallen opponent when he was down, but left wide latitude for wrestling and rough and tumble fighting. "Broughton's Rules" governed boxing from 1734 until 1838, under the reformed named "London Prize Ring Rules", which stated that a round ended when one fighter went down or his knee touched the ground. Broughton also introduced the idea of blocking and some defense to the sport.

When Broughton passed out of the picture, boxing suffered because it had lost the man who was recognized as "The Father of the English School of Boxing." Shortly after the death of Broughton "crookedness" crept into the sport. It became known as "The Period of the Double Crosses." The popularity of the sport waned until the appearance of Daniel Mendoza.

Daniel Mendoza was the first Jewish fighter to gain a championship. He was very intelligent and made many contributions to the development of boxing as an art form. Prior to Mendoza success in pugilism relied primarily on brute strength and endurance, rather than scientific finesse. Mendoza devised a system of guarding, sidestepping, and effective use of a straight left jab. His new tactics were extremely successful and he captured the imagination of the British public with his skill. Relying on superior agility and speed he won the British Championship in 1791. His concentration on defense revolutionized boxing.

The next major figure is Tom Cribb who was one of England’s most celebrated champions and won national prominence from his pugilistic feats. He was born on July 8, 1781. He won the British Championship in 1807 by defeating Jim Belcher in 41 rounds. When he defeated Belcher again in 31 rounds in 1809 he was awarded a championship belt.

For many years after prize fighting flourished in England the white man reigned supreme, and it was seldom that a principal with black skin dare fortune in the ring. The first black pugilist of renown was Bill Richmond, the son of a Georgia born slave who drifted North as the property of John Charlton, and the first to cross the Atlantic and display in British Rings the boxing he had learned while fighting on plantations in the south. During 1777, while New York was held by British troops, Richmond by whipping in succession three British soldiers in a tavern attracted the attention of General Earl Percy, who afterwards became the Duke of Northumberland. The British General took Richmond to his homeland, and under his patronage the Negro, who was only a middleweight, defeated several top heavyweights. With a number of victories under his belt, and receiving fame as "The Black Terror", Richmond challenged top British fighter Tom Cribb but was knocked out by Cribb in 1805.

The next top black fighter of mention is Tom Molineaux, a heavyweight weighing 185 pounds, enjoyed great success in the British prize ring and twice challenged Tom Cribb, losing in consecutive years in 1810 and 1811. In the first match Molineaux was carried out of the ring in the 33rd round and in the second in Cribb knocked him out in 11 rounds. He was the first American to challenge for the British title.

The first "American Champion" was Tom Hyer, whose father Jacob Hyer participated in the first public boxing match under the English prize ring rules in America. The first American championship match was between Tom Hyer and "Yankee" Sullivan for a $5,000 side bet and the championship of America. It took place on Feb 7, 1849, with Hyer the victor in 16 rounds.

The first "World Championship" took place at Farnsborough, England on April 17, 1860 between the British Champion Tom Sayers and the American champion John C. Heenan. It was the first real "sporting event" to attract celebrity from all parts of England and France, there were members of British parliament present at the match, officers from the Navy and Army, and literary giants such as William Thackeray and Charles Dickens. Special correspondents from America such as the Police Gazette, Leslie’s weekly and other American newspapers covered it.

The battle was a grueling encounter that lasted 2 hours and 20 minutes. After 37 rounds Sayers began to tire and Heenan rushed Sayers to the ropes. Heenan forced Sayers neck over the top strand of rope and pressed down on his throat with his arms. The partisan of Sayers supporters went wild and stormed the ring and cut the rope. The referee fled the ring and the bout was eventually declared a draw to the dismay of the American Heenan who thought he was winning. Sayers soon retired and Heenan was recognized as "World Boxing Champion."

Britain's 1861 "anti-prize fight" act made it a felony to so much as transport persons to the scene of a projected prizefight. Since this meant that anyone from railroad engineers to men who booked boats on the Thames river could face long jail terms, it ended boxing in the United Kingdom for some time.

Most leading British fighters including Jem Mace, emigrated to the United States or Australia, where Larry Foley became Mace's most successful student. It was Foley who established boxing, first bare-knuckle then Queensbury rules in Australia. Foley's own star pupil was the "Black Prince" Peter Jackson. In the U.S. British fighters such as Mike McCoole, Tom Allen and Joe Goss helped to establish boxing firmly in America.

In England, prize ring devotee John Sholto Douglas, the ninth Marquees of Queensbury, agreed to sponsor a set of rules, written by Arthur Graham Chambers, to cover gloved contests. These new rules were first put into practice in 1867 in the first "Queensbury Amateur Tournament" and since no prize money was involved it was not subject to the "anti-prize fight" statute. Soon after "tournaments" offering cash prizes for contestants sprang up in the 1870's.

By the time John L. Sullivan rose to prominence boxing was the most popular sport in the free world. Sullivan, "The Boston Strong Boy" won the World Heavyweight Championship, at least in American eyes, on a 9th round knockout of Paddy Ryan on Feb 7, 1882 in Mississippi City, MS. On May 14, 1883 he faced the British champion Charley Mitchell in New York, at Madison Square Garden and stopped him in the third. The police stopped the fight to keep the battered Mitchell from absorbing more punishment. Even though the victory was convincing and earned Sullivan universal recognition as "World Champion" it had surprised Sullivan's followers when Mitchell was able to knock down the powerful American in the first round.

Sullivan reigned as bare knuckle heavyweight champion for ten long years and became America's first true sports hero. Sullivan often remarked, "I can lick any son of a bitch in the house." America was proud of him and a famous saying of the day was, "I shook the hand, that shook the hand of the mighty John L." He reportedly earned over $900,000 in his career as a prizefighter, sparring exhibitions and on stage.

James J. Corbett, know as "Gentleman Jim", upset Sullivan for the World Heavyweight Championship on Sept 7, 1892 in New Orleans, La. The bout was fought under the Marquis of Queensbury Rules which stated that bouts must be fought with gloves, a round was to last 3 minutes in length, and it forbid the use of wrestling. Corbett showed that innovative footwork and boxing skills could overcome the raw power and strength of Sullivan when he knocked out the defending champion in the 21st round. Thus began the modern era of boxing.

Monte D. Cox is another boxing historian - http://coxscorner.tripod.com/ - a decent site to read some info' on some old boys, there's some great stuff in his archive section.

 

[Numbers]

Interestingly, Cox has Tyson in his top 10 Heavy's of all time, 1 place after Lewis, and wrote some good articles on them.

Mike Tyson: Iron and Clay - http://coxscorner.tripod.com/tyson.html

With another lovely little Tyson compilaton clip at the end

With appropriate soundtrack too

Also he wrote an article on Lewis

Lennox Lewis: The Destroyer - http://coxscorner.tripod.com/lewis.html

And then the heavy's he rates, and why - http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

 

[1927]

Tyson at his peak was great. Pound for pound he's not the greatest ever.

Sugar Ray Robinson.. he won something like 180 fights..

No mention of pre war fighters on here, so I give you Jimmy Wilde. By all accounts his official record is way short of the number of fights he really had, but its probably not quite the 800 that Wilde claimed.

 

[Numbers]

Muhammad O' Ali

Ali was the greatest Irish fighter the world has ever seen

From the book, The Big Fight by Dave Hannigan

Get in there...

 

[100% masahiko]

P.s. I'm not sure that Gracie could take Tyson in a street fight. BJJ is tailor made for UFC but it's a different matter when there is no judge to say well done you've won by submission.

BJJ tailored made for the UFC? I don't agree.
You need to be an excellent striker/grappler to succeed in this game and BJJ is just a tiny aspect.

Sakuraba for example is a an old school Catch Wrestler and knows no BJJ. He still managed to kick the Gracies.

In a real street fight, Royce would kill Tyson - because if there's no judge, he'll just go through the motion and break bones/strangulation/choke - death.

 

[internetstalker]

BJJ tailored made for the UFC? I don't agree.
You need to be an excellent striker/grappler to succeed in this game and BJJ is just a tiny aspect.

Sakuraba for example is a an old school Catch Wrestler and knows no BJJ. He still managed to kick the Gracies.

In a real street fight, Royce would kill Tyson - because if there's no judge, he'll just go through the motion and break bones/strangulation/choke - death.

In a straight forward street fight you have to take alot more shit into account, pressure points. small joint manipulation, eye gouging, strikes to the throwt (how the fuck do you spell throwt?)

you just cant compare UFC or boxing, let alone compare either to street fighting

 

[100% masahiko]

In a straight forward street fight you have to take alot more shit into account, pressure points. small joint manipulation, eye gouging, strikes to the throught (how the fuck do you spell throught?)

Throat?
God man, don't you watch porn?

In a streetfight and on one-on-one, I'd bet on the grappler.

But yeah, there are so many other obstacles.
Tyson could be carrying a gun or that mad helmet he sometimes wear to clubs.

Comparing UFC/boxing? Theyre' different sports. But I do like seeing boxers doing so well in MMA - it's the fastest growing sport and in a few years will overtake boxing (if not already).

 

[internetstalker]

As AKA says, it is all subjective and a debate that will rage forever.

But... give us your top 10 (5 even) fighters of any era (active or not), and why (if you can be arsed)

Mine are

Ali - no words needed, 1st seen him in the Rumble in the Jungle, absolutely love him to bits, an absolute master of the game.
Holmes - Heavyweight champion when I was aware of what boxing was, realy cemented my love for boxing staying up for some of his fights when a boy.
Hearns - I used to be called the Hitman when I boxed and our surnames are similar, the Motor City Cobra was a brilliant flawed machine.
McGuigan - I sparred 1 round with him, + I was there the night in Loftus Rd when he beat Pedroza + cried the night he lost it in the heat of the Vegas desert.
Tyson - goes without say with what he's brought to boxing and the excitement, total fighting machine.
Pacman - current most exciting fighter in the world and brilliant to watch, making DLH and Hatton look as pedestrian as they did was brilliant, and his wars with JMM are yet unfinished.
Hagler - perfect fighting machine, absolutely Marvelous, I know he was beat by SRL etc.. but Marvelous Marvin invented educated pressure.
Barrera - baby faced assasin, loved his wars with El Terrible and loved how he brought Hamed to school, total brilliance.
Jack Johnson - a bold brilliant man/boxer, not seen as much footage of him unlike modern boxers, but the book Unforgivable Blackness utterly moved me
Holyfield - some of the best, and probably the best night of my life have been/happened on the night I also watched some of his fights.

The list could go on and is probably subject to change, but right now.. my fav' 10.

I do love a numbers boxing thread

 

[Fruitloop]

Yeah street fighting is about strikes to the eyes, throat, clavicle, groin and floating ribs, with biting, raking, and breaking attacks to the ankles/knees/shins, preferably combined in as varied, deceptive and savage a manner as possible, with broken timing, evasive body positioning and total commitment. Any MA techniques would be used for deception at the starting range (assuming that you’re not in-fighting from the outset), possibly for closing and with simple, direct reaping throws as part of the finish. It’s ugly, brutal and short, and isn’t really comparable to anything you would see in a ring, or indeed anything you would actually want to watch for entertainment.

 

[internetstalker]

Throat?
God man, don't you watch porn?

In a streetfight and on one-on-one, I'd bet on the grappler.

I'd bet on the guy with the best weopen, but I see your point. It's the age old MMA debate, who wins between a grappler and a boxer.

I find it interesting how nowadays you get great wrestlers now becoming top strikers.

Look at the way Henderson sparked out Bisping, that fight didn't even go to the ground.

And Lesner is perfecting using his size and weight with his hard as nails fists to nullify and pound on his opponents (he really impressed me against Mir BTW)

 

[Griff]

Oops wrong forum.

How did that happen?

 

[internetstalker]

His bit about the One Show has to be the highlight of this series so far.

 

[internetstalker]

Oops wrong forum

lol

 

[Griff]

dunno how that happened?

 

[100% masahiko]

I'd bet on the guy with the best weopen, but I see your point. It's the age old MMA debate, who wins between a grappler and a boxer.

I find it interesting how nowadays you get great wrestlers now becoming top strikers.

Look at the way Henderson sparked out Bisping, that fight didn't even go to the ground.

And Lesner is perfecting using his size and weight with his hard as nails fists to nullify and pound on his opponents (he really impressed me against Mir BTW)

Ouch - that Henderson/Bisping knockout. Front kick dummy, and that right - followed by a flying hammerfist!!



I can't stop watching it. For all those weeks Bisping was taking the piss out of Henderson - and to have thought Henderson was bottling it all up. Lol!!!

The thing about Lesnar - I do understand why he's disliked. He would make the UFC comical and it may turn into a circus. Yes. He fought well against Frank. He's a good fighter. Shame he's a totally different weight to Rampage.

 

[internetstalker]

Ouch - that Henderson/Bisping knockout. Front kick dummy, and that right - followed by a flying hammerfist!!



I can't stop watching it. For all those weeks Bisping was taking the piss out of Henderson - and to have thought Henderson was bottling it all up. Lol!!!.

LOL

Yeah

Much quodos for Henderson.

He just sat there saying nothing (apart from once, i think he called him a douche bag), you could tell he wanted to shut him up.
But he quietly carried on, losing TUF with grace and then BANG!

The thing about Lesnar - I do understand why he's disliked. He would make the UFC comical and it may turn into a circus. Yes. He fought well against Frank. He's a good fighter. Shame he's a totally different weight to Rampage.

He is a cock tho. I mean talk about winning with no grace after the Mir fight.
he made himself look a cunt.


I take it your a bit of a Rampage fan then?

 

[100% masahiko]

I take it your a bit of a Rampage fan then?

He's grown on me. I like his attitude and his punching abilities are awesome. He did well against Henderson - good recovery onto his feet etc. Great puncher imo - one of the best.

Would love to have seen him against a world class wrestler like Lesnar.

The next few UFC fights look lame.

 

[Numbers]

What's a good advert for UFC then? I watched Rampage v Griffin today.

 

[internetstalker]

What's a good advert for UFC then? I watched Rampage v Griffin today.

I found once I learnt about the ground game, the names of different positions & which once are more dangerous and some of the subtleties etc. I found nearly all UFC interesting to watch. Before I had any of that knowledge sometimes the ground game would get a bit boring.

100% masahiko will be able to give you some good fights to watch as a good advert, i'll leave that to him

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Comparing UFC/boxing? Theyre' different sports. But I do like seeing boxers doing so well in MMA - it's the fastest growing sport and in a few years will overtake boxing (if not already).

MMA is now and always will be boring, graceless shit that appeals generally to the most ignorant and bloodthirsty element of the boxing fan base.

 

[rutabowa]

i would go for Sonny Liston

 

[internetstalker]

MMA is now and always will be boring, graceless shit that appeals generally to the most ignorant and bloodthirsty element of the boxing fan base.

your ignorance astounds me

 

[100% masahiko]

MMA is now and always will be boring, graceless shit that appeals generally to the most ignorant and bloodthirsty element of the boxing fan base.

Boxing is a martial art. In MMA, it's thrown in with others - like Muay Thai, BJJ, Judo, Kung Fu etc. I think it's a beautiful spectacle.

However, UFC focuses less on ground work imo. The former Japanese division of Pride pushed that game more and I'm kinda sad it's gone.