Migration no impact on wages or unemployment

[tbaldwin]

you should read more then



oh what bullshit. Her may not mean it to be, but it is. Little Englander bullshit. patronising paternalistic shite.

'Here comes that nice Mr Baldwin to tell you thick darkies how to best live your lives. Do listen to him because he is a very clever socialist.'

bollocks.

Little Englander bullshit.....oh dear oh dear.....pathetic belboid.
My arguement has always been an Internationalist one. Arguing that Poorer countries losing the young and skilled workers they most need is indefensible....
As youve said i have repeated the arguement over and over again....So how can you say the arguement is little englander.

As for darkies as you so sweetly put it...I think you will find a lot more of them there darkies agree with me than agree with your wanky white liberal middle class arguements on immigration.....

Your arguements are reactionary and illthought out. That is why you have to resort to pathetic little pieces of nonsense insinuating i have some racist agenda.

 

[belboid]

As for the negative impact of immigration. Does anyone have any figures to show that immigration has caused wages to decrease?

seemingly not - or we can be sure they'd have been shouted from the rooftops. But the fact is, they are no such indicators. There is some evidence that some wages haven't gone up as much as they might otherwise have done, for the lowest paid, but no (non-anecdotal) evidence as to actually lowered wages.

For those that repeat vague stories from the building trade - I wonder if it's the Poles that have just caused Barratt to close half its offices and stop virtually all house building. No, didn't think it was.

 

[tbaldwin]

As for the negative impact of immigration. Does anyone have any figures to show that immigration has caused wages to decrease?

There will be some. But not that many...Some from Southhampton etc recently on the building trade etc etc etc...
But really you dont have to be a genius or an academic to realise that increasing the labour supply allows companies to keep wages down....

 

[belboid]

I have no facts or evidence to back up what I'm saying, so I am just going to be very very rude and ignorant and shout and scweam and scweam and scweam until you're all sick off me

quite

 

[Fruitloop]

The skilled tradespeople around here have definitely seen their take-home affected. In fact they talk about little else.

 

[northernhord]

and please note that the rich c**nts are British too![/QUOTE]

You dont say

 

[belboid]

As said, there have been a very small number of the w-c who may genuinely suffer some pressure on wages - mainly the self-employed or semi-self-employed tradesmen (of which there aren't actually that many left at the moment). But if anyone thinks that that downward pressure is solely due to migrant labour, they are fucking idiots.

 

[northernhord]

As said, there have been a very small number of the w-c who may genuinely suffer some pressure on wages - mainly the self-employed or semi-self-employed tradesmen (of which there aren't actually that many left at the moment). But if anyone thinks that that downward pressure is solely due to migrant labour, they are fucking idiots.

Agreed, its a tiny part of it

 

[Fruitloop]

Well I dunno I know quite a lot of them and they certainly feel that migration is a significant factor. Whether they are right to do so or not I have no idea.

 

[tbaldwin]

Belboid as for facts or evidence how much exactly do you need...Do you know that millions of people die every year from easily preventable or treatable illnesses in poorer countries? Do you know people starve in their millions.....Do you know that we have been systematically depriving those countries of skilled workers that could help....

You really dont have any coherent arguement for supporting free market migration policies so hide behind infantile jibes that make you increasingly pathetic...

Economic migration is a good thing for some...But for the majority of the worlds population it is far from good...But lets face it you really dont give a shit about them.

 

[tbaldwin]

As said, there have been a very small number of the w-c who may genuinely suffer some pressure on wages - mainly the self-employed or semi-self-employed tradesmen (of which there aren't actually that many left at the moment). But if anyone thinks that that downward pressure is solely due to migrant labour, they are fucking idiots.

Hadnt noticed anyone on here saying it was solely down to migration. But if anybody on here thinks it has no negative effect on lower paid wages then they really are a twat...If anybody on here thinks that it has no effect on housing costs they are a twat...Anyone on here thinks it doesnt help to make the world a more unequal place...bit of a twat...

 

[belboid]

fuck off and die cuntchops. Once again, you repeat your patriarchal 'white man knows best' argument, without a single fact or figure, as if saying it over and over simply makes it right. it doesn't. And your cheap and pathetic insinuations do you no favours - well, except for making some of the right-wing trolls on here think more of you.

 

[Fruitloop]

edit. Sod it.

 

[belboid]

i am a twat

fuck off failure boy

 

[belboid]

edit. Sod it.

soz, hoping for a sane discussion when baldwin is involved is impossible.

 

[tbaldwin]

fuck off and die cuntchops. Once again, you repeat your patriarchal 'white man knows best' argument, without a single fact or figure, as if saying it over and over simply makes it right. it doesn't. And your cheap and pathetic insinuations do you no favours - well, except for making some of the right-wing trolls on here think more of you.

White man knows best arguement eh...So what is your arguement then?
Fact is that over the years i and other people have posted up loads of evidence of why so many people are against economic migration..People like the world health organisation and Nelson Mandela ( hes Black by the way) have spoken out about Rich countries taking skilled health workers from poor asian and african countries...
Facts are that you can name a single poorer country that has benefited from economic migration.

 

[belboid]

And over the years I, and plenty of other people, have posted up details about why your arguments are grossly simplistic (if not 100% wrong) and your methods to deal with those problems would only exacerbate the problems. but you are not interested in such discussions, only in calling people 'twats' whenever they deign to disagree with you. So fuck pretending to 'debate' with you, it's a waste of time. You lie about what people say, and then ignore the points that don't fit your simplistic analysis.

Fact is, you are an old fashioned labour right-winger. Well meaning (probably) but trapped in liberal economic theory and wishing for an impossible system whereby everyone knows there place, and all governments act in the interest of 'their' people. Pure fantasy.

 

[durruti02]

Wot is there to answer beyond basic economics? Larger labour supply = lower wages. There is nothing to get agitated about.

so the bosses increasing the labour supply to lower wages is NOT then an important issue for the w/c movement?

 

[durruti02]

you should read more then



oh what bullshit. Her may not mean it to be, but it is. Little Englander bullshit. patronising paternalistic shite.

'Here comes that nice Mr Baldwin to tell you thick darkies how to best live your lives. Do listen to him because he is a very clever socialist.'

bollocks.

what on earth are you on about?? lol .. mr baldwin was a notorious anti fascist and anti racist for many years and has an equally longer pedigree as a socialist .. your charterisation of him is really really way out

if you feel or accuse that he/it is little englander, which in MY opinion it is nothing like, then you need to justify that .. that is only fair

i gave you a list of what he is saying .. if you think he and my interpretation is wrong then please say why or otherwise i am at a loss to understand your hostility

 

[durruti02]

Well I did intend to read this thread through in case I repeated or missed anything, but then people started calling each other cunt etc so I thought I'd skip it all out!

A major problem this country is facing is the ageing population. As you can see from here, just under a third of the entire budget is spent on "social protection" (the majority of which is pensions), and about a third of the budget is gained from income tax. As the population gets older (ie as more people go into retirement than go into working age) then income tax goes down and social protection goes up. That's the "pension crisis." We're not gonna be able to afford to pay people's pensions unless tax goes up. But is it politically possible for a government to raise taxes? Especially in today's climate? A government that raises taxes won't stay in government for long, in fact, political parties might even promise tax cuts to gain power (which, after all, is the main objective of political parties because how can you implement your ideas from the sidelines?) Immigrant workers are a God send to tackle this problem. They swell the ranks of the workforce (and the amount of income tax revenues) and "go home" to retire, so don't use up the social protection funds.

Obviously there are other ways to make up the shortfall in social protection funds without raising taxes (or through immigration) such as cutting back on funding elsewhere, but that's only a short term measure. Eventually, if the population continues to age, then sooner or later, after you've stripped the state apparatus down to its bare minimum, you'll have to raise taxes, which would prove unpopular and possibly politically impossible. Then the only option would be to privatise the pension system completely.

As for the negative impact of immigration. Does anyone have any figures to show that immigration has caused wages to decrease?

hi cyber .. that is a good and reasonable defence of the use of immigration by the state .. i suspect it is pretty accurate too .. my arguement though why else this process is happening, and imho it is clearly also to provide cheap labour, in what labour mp john cruddas called the 'north american model', and also is how this process affects w/c organisation, which again imho is at the moment negatively

re the wage affects, there is the Dustmann survey ( qouted in teh OP survey) that was bigger than the Lemos DWP survey and said that wages overall have risen but been depressed at the lower end of the scale

my other issue is that many w/c people are so alienated that they are not competing for these jobs as they don't want them at the rates and conditions! .. that though is not a good thing! migration has then been used so the rich/bosses/state does not have to deal with these issues ..

 

[durruti02]

But if anyone thinks that that downward pressure is solely due to migrant labour, they are fucking idiots.

and now find us someone on urban PnP who has argued that! straw man alert

 

[durruti02]

.. but no (non-anecdotal) evidence as to actually lowered wages...

not true .. the significant wage rate cuts in the whole recent privatisations of cleaners and sweepers etc in the NHS and public sector would NOT have been possible without imported labour .. people in this country will not work at those rates doing those shitty jobs

 

[The Black Hand]

so the bosses increasing the labour supply to lower wages is NOT then an important issue for the w/c movement?

It is an issue - one of MANY.

 

[durruti02]

It is an issue - one of MANY.

oh for fucks sake ! yes of bloody course .. you think that I and others don't know that??? LOL

so again TOTAL straw man bollox .. as there is NOT a single bod who i can think of on u75 who argues it is of sole or primary importance

BUT ... it IS the issue that the left ignore and THAT is it's theoretical and practical importance

 

[audiotech]

not true .. the significant wage rate cuts in the whole recent privatisations of cleaners and sweepers etc in the NHS and public sector would NOT have been possible without imported labour .. people in this country will not work at those rates doing those shitty jobs

People in this country don't have the choice not to sell their labour power, so thats the latter part of your argument fucked.

As for your former, that there has been significant wage cuts in recent privatisation of cleaners in the NHS and public sector with this not being possible without 'imported labour' does not stand up.

Privatisation in the NHS and public sector began some time ago. As a precondition to privatisation it was the Thatcher government who renounced ILO Convention 94, which stipulated that public contracts should include clauses ensuring the workers concerned had wages and other conditions “no less favourable than those established for work of the same character”, and abolished the Fair Wages Resolution. At the same time contracting out and market testing resulted in tens of thousands of staff being transferred from local councils and the NHS to private contractors. The process has continued with outsourcing, private finance initiative (PFI), Public Private Partnerships (PPPs), Best Value and housing stock transfers.

These have been decisions taken by government some time ago now.

'Imported labour', as you put it is part of strategy of reducing wage costs, but it was happening a long time before the recent influx of your suggested 'imported labour' began.

Therefore, your assertion that 'the significant wage rate cuts would NOT have been possible without imported labour' is seen as the nonsense it is.

How significant is 'significant' btw?​

​

 

[durruti02]

the smear artist is blind as well ... and what you doing debating with a nazi anyway? thought you 'bashed the fasc', thought you supported 'no platform'! lol

so people have no choice over working?? really?? .. so why do we have unemployment as well as vacancies?? so who then are the millions of unemployed? the vacancies are there, the jobs are there but people do not want them as they pay shit money and have shit conditions .. this is the first generation for many where kids will earn less and have worse jobs than their parents .. and they are not biting and i do not blame them.

and you so arrogently think that you know so much yet you know so little don't you .. you are sooo dogmatic that you brain is incapable of processing new or different information .. lol

so yes of course CCT started a long time ago .. and so did TUPE .. the cuts in wages etc has been gradual since then .. but to repeat, this process would not have been possible without importing labour .. gradually the older workers on old wages were phased out and the jobs were subed or offered at lower rates .. it was not an immediate change .. it is done gradually and directly and indirectly thru redundancy and them bringing in cowboy firms, agency or temps etc ..

what the cod left fail, over and over and over and over, is to question that, if immigration does not benefit the bosses then WHY do they employ immigrants ..

now it could be because immigrants are cheaper, less unionised, temporary, more compliant, less aware of their rights etc etc etc or, and now let me laugh at your only other possible conclusion, .. that locals are lazy!

 

[audiotech]

the smear artist is blind as well ... and what you doing debating with a nazi anyway? thought you 'bashed the fasc', thought you supported 'no platform'! lol

so people have no choice over working?? really?? .. so why do we have unemployment as well as vacancies?? so who then are the millions of unemployed? the vacancies are there, the jobs are there but people do not want them as they pay shit money and have shit conditions .. this is the first generation for many where kids will earn less and have worse jobs than their parents .. and they are not biting and i do not blame them.

and you so arrogently think that you know so much yet you know so little don't you .. you are sooo dogmatic that you brain is incapable of processing new or different information .. lol

so yes of course CCT started a long time ago .. and so did TUPE .. the cuts in wages etc has been gradual since then .. but to repeat, this process would not have been possible without importing labour .. gradually the older workers on old wages were phased out and the jobs were subed or offered at lower rates .. it was not an immediate change .. it is done gradually and directly and indirectly thru redundancy and them bringing in cowboy firms, agency or temps etc ..

what the cod left fail, over and over and over and over, is to question that, if immigration does not benefit the bosses then WHY do they employ immigrants ..

now it could be because immigrants are cheaper, less unionised, temporary, more compliant, less aware of their rights etc etc etc or, and now let me laugh at your only other possible conclusion, .. that locals are lazy!

That's your conclusion liar, as I have not said any such thing.

There is unemployment alongside vacancies for a variety of reasons. Skill shortages are one, but that wouldn't fit into your simplistic view would it?

I see you admit now that privatisation took place some time ago and accept that affects on pay and working conditions took place from that time, but despite that admission, still assert that immigration is the over riding reason for low pay in the first place?

You then ask rhetorically:

...if immigration does not benefit the bosses then WHY do they employ immigrants...

Immigration, nor immigrants per se benefits the bosses, it is the process of exploitation that bosses use which serves that function. That is the process used to exploit all workers and not just immigrants.

So if the question is put this way:

...if workers do not benefit the bosses then WHY do they employ workers...

My answer is because the bosses are buying labour power to attempt to extract surplus value from it.

What would yours be?

You fall down because you distinguish between workers. Immigrants are seen as 'imported labour', 'commodities' to be used against 'indigenous', 'local workers'.

This, despite your protestations to the contrary, is reactionary, nationalism being paraded on here as somehow wadical.

Oh and stick your abuse where the tofu don't shine.

 

[audiotech]

You missed this?

How significant is 'significant' btw?

 

[durruti02]

That's your conclusion liar, as I have not said any such thing.

There is unemployment alongside vacancies for a variety of reasons. Skill shortages are one, but that wouldn't fit into your simplistic view would it?

I see you admit now that privatisation took place some time ago and accept that affects on pay and working conditions took place from that time, but despite that admission, still assert that immigration is the over riding reason for low pay in the first place?

You then ask rhetorically:



Immigration, nor immigrants per se benefits the bosses, it is the process of exploitation that bosses use which serves that function. That is the process used to exploit all workers and not just immigrants.

So if the question is put this way:


My answer is because the bosses are buying labour power to attempt to extract surplus value from it.

What would yours be?

You fall down because you distinguish between workers. Immigrants are seen as 'imported labour', 'commodities' to be used against 'indigenous', 'local workers'.

This, despite your protestations to the contrary, is reactionary, nationalism being paraded on here as somehow wadical.

Oh and stick your abuse where the tofu don't shine.

the smear artist continues with his brain dead idiocy ..

well at least you admit that the bosses exploit immigration .. thats a start

and you mention skills shortages .. againn you think i do not know of this???? god you are so arrogent! yes but ask yourself WHY DO WE HAVE SKILLS SHORTAGE?? .. er might it be cos it is easier and cheaper for the bosses to import rather than train???

so i distinguish between workers? prick .. of course i do not and have NEVER .. i have always talked of the process and how it is 'used and abused' ( a phrase i have used a dozen times and more on here ) ..

my position is over and over and over i support workers controlling where they live and work hence i oppose the bosses using cheap labour and hence i oppose them using immigrants .. you think i support the bosses employing local people as cheap labour??!! he he.. you really are stupid!!

and the 'nationalism' smear again!! he he .. you really are soo soo stupid .. you have NO idea what these terms you use are do you? none at all? you are such a student rik mayall shouting 'fascist/nationalist/reactionary' at anything that you do not want to think about ...

(shakes head in awe at the depths of stupidity that the elements of the cod left display these days )

 

[audiotech]

the smear artist continues with his brain dead idiocy ..

well at least you admit that the bosses exploit immigration .. thats a start

and you mention skills shortages .. againn you think i do not know of this???? god you are so arrogent! yes but ask yourself WHY DO WE HAVE SKILLS SHORTAGE?? .. er might it be cos it is easier and cheaper for the bosses to import rather than train???

so i distinguish between workers? prick .. of course i do not and have NEVER .. i have always talked of the process and how it is 'used and abused' ( a phrase i have used a dozen times and more on here ) ..

my position is over and over and over i support workers controlling where they live and work hence i oppose the bosses using cheap labour and hence i oppose them using immigrants .. you think i support the bosses employing local people as cheap labour??!! he he.. you really are stupid!!

and the 'nationalism' smear again!! he he .. you really are soo soo stupid .. you have NO idea what these terms you use are do you? none at all? you are such a student rik mayall shouting 'fascist/nationalist/reactionary' at anything that you do not want to think about ...

(shakes head in awe at the depths of stupidity that the elements of the cod left display these days )

^ Stupidity personified.