The Black Hand
Unclean
Yes yes yes. Pedant.
A lot of immigration debates are racist though in the British context.
Migration no impact on wages or unemployment
- Thread starter The Black Hand
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Yes yes yes. Pedant.
A lot of immigration debates are racist though in the British context.
Well anybody arguing for economic migration could be seen to be arguing for racist policies.
Its clear that economic migration makes the world a more unequal place. Clear that it has a hugely negative effect on poorer countries.
the above statement is reasonable so i do not see why it has got you in such a tiswas
I am not asking for an apology tho i think your earlier insiuation that i am on drugs signifies an act of desperation on your behalf
plus earlier admission
Yes i have i have challenged your use of race and yet you refuse to answer simple questions btw you have not writen anything theortically -you have just cut and pasted a government report
no i was drawing people attention to the fact that you are changing the parameters of the debate for a reason that you are refusing to specifiy. Why is that?
you was the one who introduced the other question tostart with so make your mind up
how very arogant
thats it run away attica when anyone asks a reasonable question and yet you have a think tank which would appear to be more Tank than think – still pratsays by name
The Black Hand
Unclean
Only if you ignore history!
NO NO NO no no no - you are starting from the wrong pov - and if you start wrong you end wrong.
Who is arguing for economic migration btw? Not me. That would be a capitalist thing to do and we are anti capitalists are we not?
The Black Hand
Unclean
To start with I find multiple quotes like this to be a very annoying posting style. But that's me. Other people may love that way of doiing it...
A) It was chaotic.
B) You say I 'should be fine' - that's an assumption too far... No desperation, you need to look at your chaotic posts a bit more.
C) A concept is not a position.
D) You challenged my use of it - i said it was irrelevant. That is my final answer. My writing is in my posts on this and other threads, and on other websites.
E) It's my thread, I can design it how I like
F) My mind is made up - you wish to unmake it.
G) No, just keeping thread on topic and not being disrailed.
H) Tit. I have a life - i cannot be at your beck and call 24/7.
A) the above statement is reasonable so i do not see why it has got you in such a tiswas
B) I am not asking for an apology tho i think your earlier insiuation that i am on drugs signifies an act of desperation on your behalf
C) plus earlier admission
D) Yes i have i have challenged your use of race and yet you refuse to answer simple questions btw you have not writen anything theortically -you have just cut and pasted a government report
E) no i was drawing people attention to the fact that you are changing the parameters of the debate for a reason that you are refusing to specifiy. Why is that?
F) you was the one who introduced the other question tostart with so make your mind up
G) how very arogant
H) thats it run away attica when anyone asks a reasonable question and yet you have a think tank which would appear to be more Tank than think – still pratsays by name
A) It was chaotic.
B) You say I 'should be fine' - that's an assumption too far... No desperation, you need to look at your chaotic posts a bit more.
C) A concept is not a position.
D) You challenged my use of it - i said it was irrelevant. That is my final answer. My writing is in my posts on this and other threads, and on other websites.
E) It's my thread, I can design it how I like
F) My mind is made up - you wish to unmake it.
G) No, just keeping thread on topic and not being disrailed.
H) Tit. I have a life - i cannot be at your beck and call 24/7.
the OP is bizarre .. it gives the impression the OPer thinks that an, essentially, DWP ( i.e. state) report would be somehow differrent to 'the media' ..
and of course there is NO united position from the media .. in fact the broadsheets ( being free traders ) are overwhelmingly PRO immigration .. and ALSO if you read the Scum you would see too that THEY support immigration .. those who appear to oppose immigration are just shit stirring .. they are neolibs to the man
so the OP has immediately started from a false premise .. that the media are against migration .. wrong
and the report?
well the DWP economists have kept it pretty brief! e.g. when disagreeing with Dustman ( who showed that overall wages had increased but at the bottom end they had decreased ) they note that their survey was shorter and less diverse! LOL
What they do not question is why then we have immigration. The orthodox view ( which i would guarantee they support) has always been that the recent immigration occured as, we had ( HAD!) a growing economy ( and that immigration further fueled that growth ) and therefore there many vacancies, to which local people were either untrained or unwilling to take the jobs.
The report then takes a totally uninterested position as to whether it makes SENSE to import labour rather than dealing with the structural issues ( training, low wages, alienation, shite work etc ) locally .. as, of course, as it is sponsered by free marketeers
er all in all exactly what i have been saying from day one .. that the current immigration is a direct component of neoliberalism or latterday Thatcherism where cheap labour is used to fuel growth unsustainably ( unsustainable growth .. now where have i heard that recently!! he he LOL )
BUt tbh i find a state sponsered survey like this to be kind of meaningless or irrelevent to/from a class struggle POV. That a so called marxist can seemingly promote this POV is strange. A class struggle analysis would look at migration and it's affect on class composition and conciousness. I have attempted to push that on here and elsewhere. I think that how immigration has been used in the last 5 or more years has been to, deliberately, and sucessfully, depresss w/c conciousness and organisation. Tbh i think this is pretty indisputable ..
Antediluvian anti immigration drawbridge-puller in won't listen to any evidence that confronts their prejudices shocker.
do you think migration has NO affect on wages and employment at all?
toblerone3
Grrrrr
What about the long game ie a new internationalised proletariat made possible by improved communications and increased migration. Could this ever happen?
At the moment we seem to have the worst of both worlds all the drawbacks of migration vis-a-vis a class conciousness with none of the potential benefits.
At the moment we seem to have the worst of both worlds all the drawbacks of migration vis-a-vis a class conciousness with none of the potential benefits.
audiotech
wav, aiff, mp3, ogg, flac
The lizards came up with that plan did they?
The Labour party have done a mighty fine job of depressing any notions of class without any help from immigrants, migrants, asylum seekers and refugees.
yes i think this is right both the second bit that we have the worst of both worlds but also the first bit that a new class CAN be created fom this. Personally i think though it has made things a lot harder and is pushing peole to the right rather than left though that is mostly due to the the cod lefts out of touch reaction to events
I am absolutely convinced that the unreconstructed left do indeed see the waves of immigrants as a new nascent 'proletariat', ready at some point to storm the barricades or at least vote for them , though evidence from the U.S historically indicates that immigrants often turn to various forms of reaction, christian evelangelism in the U.S, the republicans, etc,the Tories or worse probably here in the future,
back to the drawing board, Trots
back to the drawing board, Trots
The Black Hand
Unclean
NO - you cannot say anything can be deduced from the op cos it was only a question. So the above is a waste of your time.
Here it is again - "Well European Migration has less impact than people have been led to think by the media?" It does not suggest anything, especially when followed by "You decide"!!!! Dear me - basic understanding basic understanding.
The Black Hand
Unclean
You need to read the article by Dave Douglass in here;
http://platypus1917.home.comcast.net/~platypus1917/mayday_uk_issue1_win2007-08.pdf
The Black Hand
Unclean
The Black Hand
Unclean
Paraphrasing Sun Tzu;
Know yourself but do not your enemy = defeat
Know your enemy but not yourself = defeat
Know yourself and know your enemy = certain victory
You need to get beyond this good V. evil nonsense and quickly. it is the quality of argument, ideas and evidence which are important not from where they come. Raising a report for debate DOES NOT EQUAL promotion or the adoption of their ideas- dear me.
With attitudes like that from a libertarian no less no wonder we are fucked.
why dont you start a thread entitled how to correctly address HRH Attica
aww gee i'm sorry guy. if you found that chaotic i would have liked to have seen how you found the west bank when you wanted to organise an attica led international brigade that time
If i said put your head in an oven would you seriously assume that i expect you to? with regards to my 'chaotic posts' other people seem to be able to understand them for good or for ill , so in this case by returning to this theme i think this is more a reflection on your own failings..No desperation
Your not taking a position or conceptualising - your cut an pasting government spin and then throwing race into the mix out of the blue. I am sure the free thinkers who even bother looking at any of the threads you start will realise that your position as it stands is untenable
So the use of race to make minor trival points is ok then is it? well i think everyone is aware of your postion on this now
E) It's my thread, I can design it how I like
Its not your thread -you started a thread but you are merely leasing cyber space from Urban75
That presumes there was a mind there to start with
Yes it is clear for all to see ask 'great leader' attica a simple question and attica refuses to answer it bear that in mind lurkers when the great leader advetises his political events. No you took the thread off topic for reasons not revealed and this is clear for everyone to see
there called breasts and everyone has them
why do i find that hard to belive...I find it intersting how you keep coming back trying to justify your original post whilst refusing to address any of the points in my original post. whatever happened to byee?
why did you introduce race into the thread? Becasue you thought you were being clever when in fact you were being very stupid
My POV is that if you say you are an Internationalist or that you believe in Class politics then you have to be strongly against economic migration.
The consequences of economic migration are catastrophic.
poorer nations lose the young and skiled workers they most need.
People in richer nations can benefit from immigration especially if they are landlords,own companies etc.
Its preety laughable how bringing this up can get you labelled as a racist/strasserite by some dim bulbs on here........
But the people competing for jobs and housing can lose out with mass economic migration.
Economic migration is the worst of all worlds for the vast majority of the worlds population. All it does it increase inequality worldwide and help to concentrate most of the wealth in a few hands in a few areas.....
How can anybody claim to be left wing or socialist etc and support economic migration?
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
sad pathetic wanker.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
funny how baldie always ignores any and all actual facts, and points of reference when cutting and pasting his one, right-wing, argument. it's always just the same one post, repeated over and over, and ignoring anyone who posts contrary evidence, as has been done repeatedly.
Still, you keep on using the same old right-wing arguments baldie, we all know you aren't interested in anyones view but your own anyway.
Use to get 80 a day on the building site ...now get 40
Use to be able to take on the young men in our family and train them up, can't now
But cheap labour benefits the middle classes , so better take it on the chin
Or get called racist
I wonder were the young black men in my family will find work now
Use to be able to take on the young men in our family and train them up, can't now
But cheap labour benefits the middle classes , so better take it on the chin
Or get called racist
I wonder were the young black men in my family will find work now
northernhord
Active Member
Migrant Labour served a few purposes, firstly it meant that greedy cunts could get richer, secondly it meant that British workers were priced out of their jobs by the low wages set by the rich cunts.
But actually i have never seen you show how what he says e.g. in that post , is actually wrong
is he wrong to say that immigrants are used for cheap labour? no
that many of them are highly skilled? no
that we take health care workers from the third world? no
that many migrants are used by scum landlords? no
that migrants and locals compete for work .. well maybe maybe not .. and that is what the thread is about ..most say yes .. this says no .. but see my response that i believe it totally ignores the WIDER role of how immigration and how many in the w/c are so alienated that that is why they are not competing
yes you and i disagree with TB's support for 'socialist immigration controls' but his position is NOT reactionary NOT racist NOT right wing .. it is ( and he won't like this ) simply a form of left wing old labour - planning and defending the w/c
outrageous!
as the report says there is no evidence of this .. LOL and please note that the rich c**nts are British too!
well why not answer my post then ..
The Black Hand
Unclean
Nonsense student grant. Get somebody else to write your essays for you.
why dont you start a thread entitled how to correctly address HRH Attica
aww gee i'm sorry guy. if you found that chaotic i would have liked to have seen how you found the west bank when you wanted to organise an attica led international brigade that time
If i said put your head in an oven would you seriously assume that i expect you to? with regards to my 'chaotic posts' other people seem to be able to understand them for good or for ill , so in this case by returning to this theme i think this is more a reflection on your own failings..No desperation
Your not taking a position or conceptualising - your cut an pasting government spin and then throwing race into the mix out of the blue. I am sure the free thinkers who even bother looking at any of the threads you start will realise that your position as it stands is untenable
So the use of race to make minor trival points is ok then is it? well i think everyone is aware of your postion on this now
Its not your thread -you started a thread but you are merely leasing cyber space from Urban75
That presumes there was a mind there to start with
No you took the thread off topic for reasons not revealed and this is clear for everyone to see
there called breasts and everyone has them
why do i find that hard to belive...I find it intersting how you keep coming back trying to justify your original post whilst refusing to address any of the points in my original post. whatever happened to byee?
why did you introduce race into the thread? Becasue you thought you were being clever when in fact you were being very stupid
The Black Hand
Unclean
Wot is there to answer beyond basic economics? Larger labour supply = lower wages. There is nothing to get agitated about.
The Black Hand
Unclean
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
you should read more then
oh what bullshit. Her may not mean it to be, but it is. Little Englander bullshit. patronising paternalistic shite.
'Here comes that nice Mr Baldwin to tell you thick darkies how to best live your lives. Do listen to him because he is a very clever socialist.'
bollocks.
Honestly, I think you completely miss the point with this stuff. Migrant workers are not used to hold back wages and working conditions because they are migrants, but because they are poor.
The UK state is never going to stop "economic" migration into the UK, partly because it doesn't want to, but also because it's impossible. All that anti-migrant laws do is force migrants to live off the radar, in jobs are often dangerous, with especially poor wages and working conditions, where they'll have little or no contact with the "native" workforce. This acts as a barrier to workplace organisation and drives down wages.
The only way around this is for the workers' movement as a whole to force employers and the government to stop treating migrant workers like shit, to organise with them on the basis of internationalism and shared class interest.
CyberRose
أرفع الشفرات
Well I did intend to read this thread through in case I repeated or missed anything, but then people started calling each other cunt etc so I thought I'd skip it all out!
A major problem this country is facing is the ageing population. As you can see from here, just under a third of the entire budget is spent on "social protection" (the majority of which is pensions), and about a third of the budget is gained from income tax. As the population gets older (ie as more people go into retirement than go into working age) then income tax goes down and social protection goes up. That's the "pension crisis." We're not gonna be able to afford to pay people's pensions unless tax goes up. But is it politically possible for a government to raise taxes? Especially in today's climate? A government that raises taxes won't stay in government for long, in fact, political parties might even promise tax cuts to gain power (which, after all, is the main objective of political parties because how can you implement your ideas from the sidelines?) Immigrant workers are a God send to tackle this problem. They swell the ranks of the workforce (and the amount of income tax revenues) and "go home" to retire, so don't use up the social protection funds.
Obviously there are other ways to make up the shortfall in social protection funds without raising taxes (or through immigration) such as cutting back on funding elsewhere, but that's only a short term measure. Eventually, if the population continues to age, then sooner or later, after you've stripped the state apparatus down to its bare minimum, you'll have to raise taxes, which would prove unpopular and possibly politically impossible. Then the only option would be to privatise the pension system completely.
As for the negative impact of immigration. Does anyone have any figures to show that immigration has caused wages to decrease?
A major problem this country is facing is the ageing population. As you can see from here, just under a third of the entire budget is spent on "social protection" (the majority of which is pensions), and about a third of the budget is gained from income tax. As the population gets older (ie as more people go into retirement than go into working age) then income tax goes down and social protection goes up. That's the "pension crisis." We're not gonna be able to afford to pay people's pensions unless tax goes up. But is it politically possible for a government to raise taxes? Especially in today's climate? A government that raises taxes won't stay in government for long, in fact, political parties might even promise tax cuts to gain power (which, after all, is the main objective of political parties because how can you implement your ideas from the sidelines?) Immigrant workers are a God send to tackle this problem. They swell the ranks of the workforce (and the amount of income tax revenues) and "go home" to retire, so don't use up the social protection funds.
Obviously there are other ways to make up the shortfall in social protection funds without raising taxes (or through immigration) such as cutting back on funding elsewhere, but that's only a short term measure. Eventually, if the population continues to age, then sooner or later, after you've stripped the state apparatus down to its bare minimum, you'll have to raise taxes, which would prove unpopular and possibly politically impossible. Then the only option would be to privatise the pension system completely.
As for the negative impact of immigration. Does anyone have any figures to show that immigration has caused wages to decrease?
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