Migrant Workers "good" for the economy
- Thread starter cockneyrebel
- Start date
tbaldwin said:
Which translates roughly as :
1) I'm an idiot
2) I'm an idiot who can't say anything of relevance or insight, so I'll recite the same old hackneyed crap that I do on every other thread in the hope of covering up my stupidity. And I've the flaming cheek to slur others with the term 'racist idiocy'
Who said immigration is a 'jolly good thing' by the way? And how the hell would that make it 'racist' in any place?
...answers on a postcard to the 'Balders is an idiot competition, 10 Numpty Drive, Getafuckingclue Avenue, Strawmanville.
Sorry btw Belboid, I've tried to ask relevant questions - see query to Durruti earlier in the thread. But strangely he and Balders seem to want to ignore them, preferring to deal in strawmen and emotive and nonsensical anti-immigration sentiments that don't bear any scrutiny.
durruti02 said:sorry where did you read that???
i am NOT blaming immigrants ... i am blaming the bosses whether CBI ( who support this low wage migration ) or the spivvy bosses who use and abuse migrants .. ok?
Ah, so it's not the migrants fault for wanting to better themselves eh? It's all the fault of the bosses and the CBI then, no reason for them to move at all, no blame would be attributed to the immigrants themselves and this isn't an excuse for anti-immigrant sentiments.
Meanwhile, in the real world.....
belboid said:
sorry belboid but there is tons of evidence, that has been posted on here before, that in the low wage sector and where there are no shortages ( like in farming) that wages have been held back e.g. cleaning ..
immigration is not the sole factor .. privatisation //CCT etc are key but without immigration it is doubtfull whether these low wages could have held .. p.s. was chatting to a sort of colleague ( he's in outsourced company today .. on £6 an hour .. in my firm he would be on nearly £10 an hour .. an most of them are migrant .. in one compnay that pays even less they are mainly portugese) .. local people would not work at that money and this is the key, the link the important thing for socilaists .. without immigration this psrt of the neo liberal project would not work ..
and yes it is good migrants are joining unions .. i have signed up some! but even more people are leaving them as they see no point ..
how it is negative on unions is that initially most migrants do not join .. and secondly migrnats are usually emplyed after older union members have been got rid of
tarannau said:
?? sorry this does not make much sense .. i think you are saying that migrnats need to want to move ? yes of course and i fully support the right of anyone to want to better themselves .. like i say i work with migrants at my work ( more than most on here i suspect ) .. but at the end of the day does it make the world a better place? does it help us develop ways sustainable communities in which people fell happy? no it makes this country more and more a spivvy cowboy cheap labour country with some of tthe worst social stats in europe
durruti02 said:
Fuck's sake - 'spivvy cowboy cheap labour' Do you really want to dig yourself a deeper hole for yourself.
So far you've accused people who've moved thousands of miles to better themselves, many of whom leave their family and friends at home, of either directly or indirectly helping to create a 'permanent hopeless underclass' over here, all without any justification. I'd suggest you've got that arse over tit. And let's just say that I hope you're not wearing any sweat-shop clothing and have a holier than thou purchasing policy that doesn't disadvantage others elsewhere.
You're an unpleasant bloke without a sense of wider perspective Durruti, no matter how much you want to wrap up your leading opinions.
tarannau said:
mate you really do not read what i write do you ? your accusations are nonsense and simply wrong .. i have done more for migrant workers than most on urban
i have not accused any one of anything you say. in fact i have no problem with people wanted to go anywhere they want .. except i am not a libertarian or thatcherite .. i believe in people having jobs .. but i do not think it right that where i live there is nearly 50% youth unemployment. Is that acceptable in your book? and i do not think it right that spivs can employ migrnmats on £5 an hour and less so they can make a mint. do you think that is acceptable?
do not accuse people of being unpleassant when you do not read what they say let alone try to understand what they say ok?
durruti02 said:
that's the weakest justification I've ever heard, even by your standards that's low Durrutti.
There are many reasons why black kids get a raw deal in the employment market, but blaming their situation on new immigration is frankly a little bizarre. Are you implying that most black kids would aspire to the low-wage, low skilled jobs that this article in the OP talks about? Or that the new migrants are jumping straight into credible employment roles that would otherwise be keenly occupied by Black youth.
My mum came from the West Indies to this country over 30 years ago. It's weird how the finger of blame gets pointed to the newest wave of immigrants. If it's not the jews, it's the blacks or asians, or now the East Europeans, it's always the new wave ruining the chances for the others. It's doubtful that any of the first wave of each immigrant phase disadvantages the second generation much in the search for 'decent' jobs - the new wave are there to mop up the less desirable roles in the main.
belboid said:
i will maybe not today but yes there is tons and it has all been posted on here before ..
some comes from the IoD and CBI and says specifically how it slow wage growth
heres one whihc says exactly what i have always said
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/media/library/immigration
and many others including
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_11_11/us/us_immigration_explains_low_wage_growth.htm
http://www.cepr.org/PUBS/Bulletin/dps/dp71.htm
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...t+immigration+wages&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=17&gl=uk
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:...f+immigration+wages&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=21&gl=uk which stated
"The new consistency between the empirics and the theory suggests that immigration, does effect negatively the wages and employment of natives and this effect is the strongest, for unskilled natives, whom are particularly likely to compete for the same jobs as natives. However this negative effect has been over exaggerated by the press,.. " of which we would all agree!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2005/06/14/cninfla14.xml
and an old qoute from Mervyn King .." Governor: immigrants keep down inflation .. In particular, he said immigration had reduced wage inflation in Britain: "If the increased demand for labour generates its own supply in the form of migrant labour then the link between demand and prices is broken, or at least altered. Indeed, in an economy that can call on unlimited supplies of migrant labour, the concept of the output gap is meaningless."
and belboid the actual TUC document is not at all clear cut http://www.tuc.org.uk/extras/migration.pdf
http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publications/quarterlybulletin/qb060401.pdf
" It seems likelythat, without the influx of ‘new’ immigrants to fill these skillgaps, earnings would have risen at a faster rate, putting upward pressure on the costs of employers and, ultimately,inflation.(1)Second, the increased international mobility oflabour and the threat of outsourcing to other countries may have altered the wage-setting process by increasing the competitive pressures on domestic workers.(2)As a result,domestic workers may be willing to work for lower wages thanin the past."
http://www.civitas.org.uk/pdf/Rowthorn_Immigration.pdf etc etc etc
there are others that dispute all this e.g. http://cep.lse.ac.uk/pubs/abstract.asp?index=2417
tarannau said:
mate you really have the wrong end of the stick .. of course people do not want many of these jobs ..
so what we need is a differrent society so/where work is done differrently by all of us .. instead we have white spivs using sucessive waves of migrants to do the shite work amd keep down wages .. do you support this ? as a black man do you think it healthy that we import africans and slavs to do our dirty work!!!!!
p.s. do you read voice or new nation .. they are full of complinats about what is going on
all this is about how we create a better equal society .. allowing the bosses to drive this country into some american low wage economy fueled by successive waves of exploitable migrants is not the right way to go is it!!.. agreed?
tarannau said:
you see this is where i think you do not understand where i am at .. i am trying to get at how we actually create a fair and equal society .. yes this will involve migrants and all peoples .. but it will not be built on the rich exploiting those who seek a better life will it? it will be built on looking at where we live and who we live with in teh here and now. it will be about building strong sustainable communities with who lives here, here and now .. continually allowing the bosses to treat us like commodities, like slaves to be bought and sold is not the answer
durruti02 said:
You don't create a fair and equal society by closing borders and artificially supporting wages. We're sadly past that point. All this gumph about 'strong sustainable communities' essentially boils down to the language of insularity and stagnancy.
We're based on a core and periphery global model - our relative prosperity in Blighty is based on the exploitation and cheap labour of others, both historically and today.
The big beef for me is the rising income disparity between rich and poor, but that's unfortunately far too common in all countries, even ones with low immigration - take, for example, India with its massive grinding differences between the unbelievably poor and ridiculously rich.
I can't think of one country where protectionist, insular society has actually benefited the people. Look at Australia and their points system and horrible attitudes - plenty of racists, support for the NF in huge numbers and a crappy 'Larrikin' culture in the main. Or France, whose economy is rapidly going down the toilet, with a fucking right-wing egomaniac coming to power as a result.
You shouldn't try and stop people making a decent life for themselves, especially when many are owed it as a legacy of empire. Us Brits have gained from the association and profits for long enough and it's pie-in-the-sky to suggest you can compete in the global economy by artificially buffering lower wages and restricting the labour supply.
I'd still like to run over Digby Jones and those two-faced CBI cunts mind...
he's their shining white knight isn't he?
Those immigrants must be overjoyed that Durruti there for them, talking of 'spivvy cowboy labour' and how their arrival's helped create an 'underclass of people without hope.'
i bet they're over the moon with his support eh. Because us stupid immigrant types need folks like Durruti to protect us from being exploited.
Those immigrants must be overjoyed that Durruti there for them, talking of 'spivvy cowboy labour' and how their arrival's helped create an 'underclass of people without hope.'
i bet they're over the moon with his support eh. Because us stupid immigrant types need folks like Durruti to protect us from being exploited.
cockneyrebel
New Member
Don’t know whether this is right or wrong. But surely the answer to that is a good minimum wage and strong unions that can fight for good rights for workers.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
Durutti can only view immigration from the perspective of a capitalist. It is interesting how has posted a link from Civitas but I wonder if he knows who is involved in that so-called 'think tank'?
tarannau said:
erm lets assume you actually do give a shit........
India is a fine example. Years of economic migration have helped to increase the divide between the haves and have nots.
It is an absolute disgrace that the UK and other rich countries have taken so many skilled workers from India.
Imperialism did not end with slavery or so called independence for countries like India. It just adapted to new ways of exploiting poorer countries,plundering those countries of the resources it needs most. And that of course includes taking the most valuable resource,skilled workers.
cockneyrebel
New Member
And part of tbaldwins progressive answer to this is for all nations to install stalinist style border controls and carry out deportations.
But he doesn't talk about that very often.
But he doesn't talk about that very often.
JoePolitix
Gone
cockneyrebel said:
Nor the fact that jobs are lost en mass in this country and relocated to India.
Imperialism is an assault on all.
Unite.
Resist.
Migration is not a crime.
cockneyrebel said:
You can start a thread on that CR if you like cos its a fair point.
I do distance myself from durruti in believing firmly that you need a carrott and stick approach. Basic socialism for the greater good....Not exactly going to be flavour of the month with the Liberals is it? ooooppps eeee daisy.....
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
& its astounding how balders always just gives his (one) justification for his reactionary shite over and over and over - but has never ever provided any actual evidence to back himself up.
plus, of course, he always but always, avoids the fact that his impossible fantasy of an immaculate britain would (as cockers has pointed out) require the biggest most well armed of border patrols.
'Shoot the nasty foreigners, its for their own good!' eh balders?
plus, of course, he always but always, avoids the fact that his impossible fantasy of an immaculate britain would (as cockers has pointed out) require the biggest most well armed of border patrols.
'Shoot the nasty foreigners, its for their own good!' eh balders?
cockneyrebel
New Member
Would you go for standard gun turrets, barbed wire and guard dogs for the borders?
What about deportations? Maybe a hotline to grass people up, mass round ups, deportation camps etc
And for the internal immigration police would they have guns as well or just standard tsar guns and pepper spray? Those immigrants don't always let you take 'em down easy.
What about deportations? Maybe a hotline to grass people up, mass round ups, deportation camps etc
And for the internal immigration police would they have guns as well or just standard tsar guns and pepper spray? Those immigrants don't always let you take 'em down easy.
nino_savatte
No pasaran!
tbaldwin said:
You're two sides of the same coin.
And everyone who doesn't agree with you is still a "Liberal". Sounds like the sort of thing a group of folk from across the Atlantic, whose whacked out ideas of freedom and democracy that led us into the Iraq/Afghanistan mess, would say.
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