Middle Class is the Revolutionary Class

[butchersapron]

Let's be clear here. The centrality of the petty bourgeois as core of NSDAP voters has most certainly not been overturned - what's been overturned is the crude post-war idea that this was the only sector to which the nazis succefully appealled. The work of Hamilton and Childers etc merely broadens the nazi support out - it doesn't diminish the early and lasting petty bourgeois core.

And what's more, there are various levels that are getting conflated in some posts here - who voted NSDAP, who made up their membership, and whose interests the Nazis actually acted in are the broadest conflations - and probably also the most damaging.

 

[ViolentPanda]

But...but..it was amongst independent farmers that this growth in NSDAP vote at the end of the 20s occoured - the protestant ones anyway - and it's not much of a strech to put them in with the urban squeezed petit-bourgeois. The idea that class played no role that cybertect put above is miles off.

edit: balls, you said that in the one above that one.

I did.

 

[butchersapron]

I shall read the thread forwards from now on!

 

[ViolentPanda]

Let's be clear here. The centrality of the petty bourgeois as core of NSDAP voters has most certainly not been overturned - what's been overturned is the crude post-war idea that this was the only sector to which the nazis succefully appealled. The work of Hamilton and Childers etc merely broadens the nazi support out - it doesn't diminish the early and lasting petty bourgeois core.

And what's more, there are various levels that are getting conflated in some posts here - who voted NSDAP, who made up their membership, and whose interests the Nazis actually acted in are the broadest conflations - and probably also the most damaging.

I agree that we can lose sight of who benefitted, of whose interests were served etc. IMO though, there was a very real play made to those in the lower strata of rural agriculturalists based on their desire to become "petit bourgeois", hence some of the issues around land reform, and the idea of (IIRC) increasing the minimum acreage that could be held in ownership or tenancy. Not that this would have pleased the Junkers or any other large landowners whom the Nazis were also attempting to cultivate.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I shall read the thread forwards from now on!

Ah, you do the backwards reading thing too, then?

 

[Stoat Boy]

I can see why the far right (here and in Europe) might seem to be "revolutionary", but any analysis of their policies, whether we're talking about the far-right in France, Germany, Russia, the UK etc, shows that they're in fact indulging in reaction, harking back to ideas that have been a feature of far-right politics on and off for a century. They appear revolutionary only because of the current homogeneity (i.e. slightly different forms of neo-liberalism everywhere) in politics.

On the surface perhaps but I always think that one of the most ironic things about people such as Griffin heading up a 'nationalist' party is that the global alliance of far-right parties seems to be more about a sort of pan-European ideal which could be seen as something that could evolve to replace the current political idea of the nation state

That whole '14 words' stuff might read like just extremist hyper-bole but it does represent what would be a truly revolutionary ideal if taken it its logical conclusion.

 

[TomPaine]

I think one group worth keeping an eye on in the local elections this year are going to be the NF. If anyone noticed at the May election last year the NF who seem all but dormant managed to pull in some worrying numbers:

Ealing and Hillingdon Ian Edward National Front 7,939 4.49%
Lewsiham and Greenwich Tess Culnane National Front 8,509 5.70%
Bromley and Bexley Paul Winnett National Front 11,288 5.56%
South West Andrew Cripps National Front 4,754 2.48%
City & East Graham Kemp National Front 2,350 1.25%

 

[kyser_soze]

On the surface perhaps but I always think that one of the most ironic things about people such as Griffin heading up a 'nationalist' party is that the global alliance of far-right parties seems to be more about a sort of pan-European ideal which could be seen as something that could evolve to replace the current political idea of the nation state

That whole '14 words' stuff might read like just extremist hyper-bole but it does represent what would be a truly revolutionary ideal if taken it its logical conclusion.

Nah, the far right in Europe may well pay lip service to each other, and would happily join forces over issues like immigration, but they hate each other's guts as much as any political groups at extreme ends of the spectrum tend to - their 'movement' is driven by individual egos as much as anything else.

 

[frogwoman]

fash might look more organised than the lecft but thats not hard tbh and being more orgnaised than the left doesnt mean you're actually organised at all.

 

[kyser_soze]

fash might look more organised than the lecft but thats not hard tbh and being more orgnaised than the left doesnt mean you're actually organised at all.

That's cos the fash are about discipline and order. The internal rows are just as spectacular as the far left tho.

 

[frogwoman]

That's cos the fash are about discipline and order. The internal rows are just as spectacular as the far left tho.

yeh, thas the point i was gettin across. the internal rows with the fash are WORSE (and often very funny to watch!)

i mean at least with the left everyone calls each other twats and accuses each other of selling out, not being working class enough and the like but at least niobody gets killed or severely injured over it usually

 

[butchersapron]

On the surface perhaps but I always think that one of the most ironic things about people such as Griffin heading up a 'nationalist' party is that the global alliance of far-right parties seems to be more about a sort of pan-European ideal which could be seen as something that could evolve to replace the current political idea of the nation state

That whole '14 words' stuff might read like just extremist hyper-bole but it does represent what would be a truly revolutionary ideal if taken it its logical conclusion.

You're running very different sections of the far right together there - the electorally suscessful far-right parties whilst being odious are not the (usually lone ot tiny) nutters of the '14 words' variety. In fact, those approaches are opposed to each other on ideological and tactical grounds. The first know that the other lot damage their electoral chances or of being accepted as part of the political mainstream and the extrmisst hate the succesful modern far right parties for selling out white nationalist principles and because they know that they've demonstrated the only path to normalisation is largely by jettisoning much of the traditional beliefs and approaches that they still cling to (that are in in fact their only reason for existing today in reality).

 

[frogwoman]

You're running very different sections of the far right together there - the electorally suscessful far-right parties whilst being odious are not the (usually lone ot tiny) nutters of the '14 words' variety. In fact, those approaches are opposed to each other on ideological and tactical grounds. The first know that the other lot damage their electoral chances or of being accepted as part of the political mainstream and the extrmisst hate the succesful modern far right parties for selling out white nationalist principles and because they know that they've demonstrated the only path to normalisation is largely by jettisoning much of the traditional beliefs and approaches that they still cling to (that are in in fact their only reason for existing today in reality).

indeed

 

[ViolentPanda]

On the surface perhaps but I always think that one of the most ironic things about people such as Griffin heading up a 'nationalist' party is that the global alliance of far-right parties seems to be more about a sort of pan-European ideal which could be seen as something that could evolve to replace the current political idea of the nation state

That whole '14 words' stuff might read like just extremist hyper-bole but it does represent what would be a truly revolutionary ideal if taken it its logical conclusion.

IIRC the BNP got very interested in the whole "Pan-Euro" thing back in the '90s, when you had them spouting off bits of de Benoist and Evola, but then rowed back from it when the boneheads got a bit upset. I suspect that the only reason they haven't re-aligned themselves overtly along a pan-euro axis is they're still not sure how acceptable it would be to their supporters and potential supporters, given that they now appear to be starting to pick up the UKIP vote going on their most recent electoral result.

 

[chilango]

IIRC the BNP got very interested in the whole "Pan-Euro" thing back in the '90s, when you had them spouting off bits of de Benoist and Evola, but then rowed back from it when the boneheads got a bit upset. I suspect that the only reason they haven't re-aligned themselves overtly along a pan-euro axis is they're still not sure how acceptable it would be to their supporters and potential supporters, given that they now appear to be starting to pick up the UKIP vote going on their most recent electoral result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euronat

 

[DotCommunist]

christ, the hint of economic pinch and suddenly they've heard of marx

 

[cesare]

On the surface perhaps but I always think that one of the most ironic things about people such as Griffin heading up a 'nationalist' party is that the global alliance of far-right parties seems to be more about a sort of pan-European ideal which could be seen as something that could evolve to replace the current political idea of the nation state

That whole '14 words' stuff might read like just extremist hyper-bole but it does represent what would be a truly revolutionary ideal if taken it its logical conclusion.

Are you saying that you can look at the conditions/potential conditions now as then? With possibly similar results?

 

[Stoat Boy]

Are you saying that you can look at the conditions/potential conditions now as then? With possibly similar results?

Its possible. Look at say the opposition to Islamafication ( used the term to put the whole thing in context ). There seems to be a growing sense of a pan-European response to it based on what many see as a joint threat to the Western European sense of tolerance.

Ignoring whether its right to see the growing Islamic population when compared to the negative birth rate amongst the 'native' populations of many European countries as a threat I do not see it as inconcievable that an active pan-European extreme right wing movement might come about in the next couple of decades and garner real support. Now whether they get electoral success or even go down that route ( I think that they might just come about as a secular mass movement which seeks to influence EU policy rather than work on a speific national level) I dont know but I think that everybody concedes the notion of the nation state is one in decline then something needs to fill the vacum.

Of course the national extreme right wing parties are riven with the sort of splits and egos that also plague the left but in this modern day and age then if a charasmatic leader where to arise then I dont think he (or she) would have to bother that much with worrying about them. If they can get a sufficent hit of publicity on the back of some significant event perhaps it will be a case of the likes of Nick Griffin having to do the wooing, not the other way around.

I just think that we are heading into choppy waters politically and that for many on the liberal left then this whole notion of us all being one big happy European family could have some rather unpleasant in-laws showing up.

 

[ska invita]

By good fortune Ive recently come across a couple of articles that tie in with the theme in the OP - both really worth reading.

This first was 'Petit Bourgeois Rant' in Paul Petards Irregular Libertarian Socialist Rantzine, 'The Whinger'. Luckily the article is posted on his recently launched website, so can be read here:
http://www.geocities.com/doodlepaul/
(scroll down to the article - They're Calling Us "Petty-Bourgeois" Again)

Basically he makes the point that Marx's proletariatv Bourgeoisie dichotomoy is bollocks, and that his thinkin about the petit-Bourgeoisie is confused and incoherent. He then reclaims the label of petit-bourgeoisie as a stronghold for anarchists, pointing out that anarchism has flourished exactly in the sector of society derided my ultra-marxists as petty-bourgeoise. Interesting stuff...

The second is a piece called "Class War?" and is taken from another zine called Rooted (more articles from it can be found it and other Godhave zines here: http://godhaven.org.uk/writegh.html)

THe piece hasnt been posted so I've done a scan of it - nice and big so you can read it:
Page 1
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8057/classwar1.jpg
PAge 2
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4457/classwar2.jpg

Read it for yourself, but a couple of points include the idea that the concept of a dichotomous Class War is anti-revolutionary, that models of class bandied about are meaningless/irrelevant/wrong, that revolutionary-class-warriorism is a fetish that allienates everyone across the class/political spectrum, and that prolier-than-thou thinking often contradicts many revolutionary ideals.

 

[tbaldwin]

They are not successfully rebelling against the political establishment consensus on any level whatsoever.

If you disagree I would be interested to hear why.

I disagree with this.
The BNP are rebelling against a political concensus that says political parties should not have people with criminal records, that political parties should support high public spending and be broadly pro immigration and anti the death penalty etc.
In all of this they connect with a lot of what a lot of people think. The main thing that holds them back are that they are a bunch of social inadequates and nazis.

 

[ska invita]

By good fortune Ive recently come across a couple of articles that tie in with the theme in the OP - both really worth reading.

This first was 'Petit Bourgeois Rant' in Paul Petards Irregular Libertarian Socialist Rantzine, 'The Whinger'. Luckily the article is posted on his recently launched website, so can be read here:
http://www.geocities.com/doodlepaul/
(scroll down to the article - They're Calling Us "Petty-Bourgeois" Again)

Basically he makes the point that Marx's proletariatv Bourgeoisie dichotomoy is bollocks, and that his thinkin about the petit-Bourgeoisie is confused and incoherent. He then reclaims the label of petit-bourgeoisie as a stronghold for anarchists, pointing out that anarchism has flourished exactly in the sector of society derided my ultra-marxists as petty-bourgeoise. Interesting stuff...

The second is a piece called "Class War?" and is taken from another zine called Rooted (more articles from it can be found it and other Godhave zines here: http://godhaven.org.uk/writegh.html)

THe piece hasnt been posted so I've done a scan of it - nice and big so you can read it:
Page 1
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8057/classwar1.jpg
PAge 2
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4457/classwar2.jpg

Read it for yourself, but a couple of points include the idea that the concept of a dichotomous Class War is anti-revolutionary, that models of class bandied about are meaningless/irrelevant/wrong, that revolutionary-class-warriorism is a fetish that allienates everyone across the class/political spectrum, and that prolier-than-thou thinking often contradicts many revolutionary ideals.

Id be interested to hear peoples thoughts on these two pieces - personally i think they're spot on, and have been the most interesting things ive read in a long time...

 

[poster342002]

I think the 'security services' recently did a 10, 20 or 30 year forecast for Britain which said the middle classes would be the ones to revolt due to their traditional privileges being eroded.

But would they still continue to treat their subordinate working-classes like shit, afterwards?

 

[poster342002]

the working classes need the middle classes to get a bit fucked off right now.

Not that it'll make any difference afterwards - the middle classes would still have their boot on our heads.

 

[brasicritique]

Not that it'll make any difference afterwards - the middle classes would still have their boot on our heads.

And this is sadly the fact of the matter, working/lower class interests are always subordinate to middle class interests , or political fetishes as they are ( stop the war , shut the power stations ignore those who work in the power station etc ) in general the middle class tend to treat working class people as there subordiante. To be fair this is how they are psycologically constructed in context to the system we live under , however it always amuses me whenever i see the dual layer of false consciousness false consciousness they suffer from in action. With regard to government predictions i doubt the ability of our government to have anyone of any intelligence working for them! Even the tory front bench contains more planks than B&Q . Look at that twat osbourne he is so thick he needs fat kens help just to put in mediocre performances.

This whole idea that the government possess any inteligence full stop is a joke owing to the fact that most government agencies and indeed think tanks are populated by untalented posh and/or mangement mantra twats. If you think i am wrong them ask yourselfs how the fuck all these clever fuckwits failed to see the banking crisis on the horizon.

As for the whole far right revolutionary aspect of this thread we appear to be missing one of the key aspects which led to nazi success, which i feel may at some point become relevant to the british political landscape - A crisis of masculinity. You only have to look at the recent way a lot of commentators and indeed swapies jumped on the refinery strikers with inferences that they were 'racsists'

If you look at such issues as social immoblity , the education system, and the decline of manufacturing as part of a bigger picture then it pretty much exposes the flaw in any thinking that the middleclassess are going to become revolutionary any time soon, especially given the fact that they are the ones who have done vey well from the nushamebore government and will do so under the tories as well.

People from working class/lower class backgrounds, let alone the wider electorate are considerd with such contempt that thay are not even on the radar of the social elitists which are the westminister/media clique. And it is this contempt IMO which will come back to haunt them , and its ensuing results which ulimately could well have a negative effect on us all.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Personally I think its the white working class who vote and take an active part in the BNP.

Care to share the demographic info that leads you to believe this?

Say what you will but they are the ones most successfully rebelling against the political establishment consensus on most levels.

Only if by "rebelling against", you mean "extending the 'logic' of current government policies to serve a nationalist agenda".

 

[tbaldwin]

People from working class/lower class backgrounds, let alone the wider electorate are considerd with such contempt that thay are not even on the radar of the social elitists which are the westminister/media clique. And it is this contempt IMO which will come back to haunt them , and its ensuing results which ulimately could well have a negative effect on us all.

Agree with all of this bit. There are 8 million people of working age who dont work in this country. Millions of people surviving on benefits. Millions of disillusioned,demoralised people. And they have been largely written off by people supposedly on the political left as well as right.
Nobody seems interested in what they think or do.
The BNP can appeal to large sections of that forgotten 8 million.

The way the Left has been so dominated by the Middle Classes has meant that nobody really represents the views of people at the harsh end of capitalism.
The priorities of the Middle Class left move from fashionable protests on Iraq,Higher Education,ID cards etc etc but these do not win them much support amongst people out of work or in the lowest paid jobs and worst housing.

 

[tangentlama]

Who are the middle class?

The working class, who were renamed in the hope that they'd stand with the capital-owning class if a ruck breaks out.

 

[dennisr]

The working class, who were renamed in the hope that they'd stand with the capital-owning class if a ruck breaks out.

That's the thing - their fear of the 'aroused' middle-classes will be nothing to the terror instilled when the working classes move. And they well - the ruling classes have created the conditions where such folk have no choice left.

Its like the frankinstein novel innit - creating the monsters that come to bite your arse?

 

[Carousel]

The BNP can appeal to large sections of that forgotten 8 million.

They’re welcome to them. I mean how much of a threat can these demoralised and disillusioned types pose? It's not as if they've got much of a track record of success. As was said by butchers’ above, and as per Reich et al, Fascism’s greatest ally is found in the family values of the lower middle classes.

 

[tbaldwin]

They’re welcome to them. I mean how much of a threat can these demoralised and disillusioned types pose? It's not as if they've got much of a track record of success. As was said by butchers’ above, and as per Reich et al, Fascism’s greatest ally is found in the family values of the lower middle classes.

You sound like a bit of a fascist yourself Carousel. You lower middle class?