Mick McGahey

[dennisr]

http://archive.thisislancashire.co.uk/2004/3/22/501033.html
seems to lay the lie to sonnys claims

Indeed it does:
"Again confusion reigned, with those against the strike claiming intimidation by pickets from Durham, and local strikers insisting that it had been a local event protesting against their "leaders".
A few weeks later, the offices were occupied by miners from Bold, Sutton Manor, Parkside and Golborne Collieries - the strike was declared "official" and the offices became a strike fund centre.
On May 9, there were 10 arrests at Parkside after scuffles between pickets and men who were continuing to work.
On May 29, Lancashire miners still at work were threatened with five years suspension from the union.
By the beginning of June, the strike in Lancashire was complete. They stayed out until the official end on March 3, 1985. "

Which means - Durham miners rather than yorks miners (supported by local Lancashire). And by June 'Lancs strike complete'. Funnily enough one of my mates was a scab at the beginning (Parkside) - 110% solid after the first month

 

[dennisr]

News to me about the two tier structure in Militant. Who told you that? MI5? Or did you read it in Michael Crick's book about them?

Over 600 miners managed to make their way through the fellas fantasy 'two-tier structure'. And they had plenty of more basic concerns to be concentrating on

What a pointless jibe that was to make about the Militants. Trevhagls point stands

 

[dennisr]

Have you got a CP source saying that?

No source - just an opinion, learnt from many of those miners I knew and that is not to condemn Mick McG. You had already seen the turmoil within the CP with the right-wing Eurocommunist factions after the 1983 election defeat of labour - arguements that later had a marked impact on the likes of Kinnock. In a number of struggles before the miners - for example Ravenscraig steelworks - you had the arguements of the CP for cross-class or 'popular front' campaigns against the threat of job losses and closures arguing for 'national' interests in the Ravenscraig example. The likes of Bea Campbell openly lined up with the right wing in advocating a ballot and opposing mass picketing. Scargills approach was not that of the CP but his early training in the YCL resurfaced in a rigis and sometimes autocratic approach reflecting the way the CP had trained many tu activists. The tactics of guerrilla style activities over mass picketing by the likes of Howells certainly did not help.- leaving folk open to prosacution, isolating individuals going against the important advantages of collective mass struggle. Howells was the first NUM official to publically advocate a return to work.

Within the NUM ranks - everyone would agree that McGarthy was looking for a settlement in Scotland (along with the likes of Howells and Terry Thomas in Wales) from September onwards. Scargill - better sensing the mood against a 'sell out' in the ranks of the union, maybe(?) was opposed

c) No good option. The options were accept pit closures or resist.

Of course

b) People who claim that are kidding themselves. Do you remember all the putting-a-brave-face-on-it stuff after the defeat, with Benn and Co claiming that the miners had not been defeated? Nobody believed that - and it had been pretty clear for months before that the miners were not going to win. (That's one reason, BTW, why sympathy for the miners went up in the last portion of the strike. Some people who had not agreed with the strike and disliked Scargill, nevertheless hated the spectacle of the govt grinding the miners down. It seemed cruel.)

I'm not repeating Benn - see below

a) Well, yes, but not alone. The strike could only have been won, IMO, if some key group or groups of other workers (eg, transport workers) had struck in solidarity with the NUM. There was lots of sympathy from people in strike support groups and from members of the public giving to collections for the strikers, but without solidarity strikes, the strike was not going to be won. Coal stocks + a determined govt = too much for the NUM alone (esp. with a portion of the miners rejecting the strike).

Of course - i would say power workers were the key. Frank Ledger (Elec. Generating Board director of ops at the time) admitted years later that they had only planned for a 6 month strike and that the situation (from their point of view...) was verging on the 'catastrophic'. Various Tories pooped their pants and dropped their rhetoric on more than one occasion - fearful in the growth in support for the strike and the polarisation. An engineer at Ratcliffe power station (Notts) pointed out when interviewed after the strike that their stockpile looked as big as ever from the road but behind it all was gone. Deisel generators were being run flat out around the clock well the main coal-fired generators were just run for peak demand.

This thread has been pointing out Scargill and the miners tactical mistakes. The Tories also made plenty of mistakes - they were not the tactical masters they are always presented as (frequently in Tory ministers memoirs - over-emphasising the degree of 'unity' in their camp - remember Macgregor had to step back despite MrsTs support for him). Their main card was the trade union and Labour Party heads (which was probably as much a surprise to the Tory government as to many who had illusions in the role they might of otherwise played).

In the winter of 84-85 the miners came close to getting those elusive power cuts, which would have caused enormous problems for the government. But by then they were out of money - intensified by the sequestrations, seizure of assets etc. The leadership was exhausted of ideas - apart from holding on - to step up the action needed. Yes, it was against the odds - and I still argue they have every right to hold their heads up for what they stood for. Scargill said the government were intending to close x number of pits. The government denied this. Scargill was proven right by hindsight - the miners had no choice. As for Scargill - he stood firm during the strike alongside his members - that is to his credit. he proved himself unbreakable - unfortunately an unbending will is not enough. Especially after the experience of Orgreave (which did not turn out to be the new Saltley as was intended) - a new strategy was needed, unfortunately it was not taken up. The miners should have appealed directly to the other trade unionists over the heads of servile 'leaders' - they had the authority

The mistakes of the miners leaders were not the central reason for the defeat, neither was the lack of will of the miners, neither was the governments planning and intrasigence against the miners - it was the labour and trade union leaders who shafted them. I've heard it called a 'civil war without guns' - and thats what it was. mass criminalisation, mass intimidation and mass resistance - and the labour and trade union leaders chose to support the enemy.

 

[greenman]

Has anyone read David Peace's novelised account GB84 ?
It is powerful stuff. (Though his having the narrative voice of the gofer of his Hart Character ("Stephen Sweet") call his boss "the Jew" all the way through makes if a bit of an uneasy read, but Peaces said he wanted to illustrate the divisions within the right and the ruling class.)
I heard Hart got into trouble flying his helicopter at some Hunt Sabs a year or two ago and built himself pyramid mausoleum on his estate.
Peace's "Windsor" character called "Terry Winters" is a complicated person.

On the subject of spooks, has anyone seen the latest New Statesman?

http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2008/08/private-security-company

It has an article by one Stephen Armstrong, (who is he?) who drops into an article on private intelligence agencies claims that a quarter of the climate camp were probably "on the payroll" of one agency or another, and that Class War were "state run" in the late 90s -
"Like the state security services, which ended up running Class War in the 1990s after a hugely successful penetration"
Spooky

 

[dennisr]

Like the state security services, which ended up running Class War in the 1990s after a hugely successful penetration"
Spooky

ooooh dear - that'll puts the cat among the pigeons

 

[Fisher_Gate]

Over 600 miners managed to make their way through the fellas fantasy 'two-tier structure'. And they had plenty of more basic concerns to be concentrating on

What a pointless jibe that was to make about the Militants. Trevhagls point stands

It wasn't actually a jibe - I was implying that Militant were less susceptible to infiltration by the state narks, because membership of the inner organisation was quite carefully controlled. Compared to the anarchic revolving door membership policy of the SWP, it was quite impressive.

Do you deny that in the 1970s, the RSL existed? If you do, when was it wound up? Date, please.

 

[Cobbles]

I have no time for candy floss head Scargill. But one of the leaders of the old NUM I did have respect for was Mick Mcgahey.

He was one of the old trade union types, who unlike many of the far left had principles, which he stood by.
Unlike Scargill. Who I believe has two homes, one in the Barbican(worth 750,000?), and one in Yorkshire.

Now the question I have, was Mick all along a Special Branch informer?
Now a colleague in the Labour party has told me he was.
I don't believe this, and I don't want to believe it.

I am sure the informer was called Peter something, I cannot remember completely, but I recall reading something about this a few years ago.

I am sure Mick was no such thing.

Mick was a wonderful chap - his nutfarm politics drove the country to hate the unions.

 

[barney_pig]

Has anyone read David Peace's novelised account GB84 ?
It is powerful stuff. (Though his having the narrative voice of the gofer of his Hart Character ("Stephen Sweet") call his boss "the Jew" all the way through makes if a bit of an uneasy read, but Peaces said he wanted to illustrate the divisions within the right and the ruling class.)
I heard Hart got into trouble flying his helicopter at some Hunt Sabs a year or two ago and built himself pyramid mausoleum on his estate.
Peace's "Windsor" character called "Terry Winters" is a complicated person.

On the subject of spooks, has anyone seen the latest New Statesman?

http://www.newstatesman.com/business/2008/08/private-security-company

It has an article by one Stephen Armstrong, (who is he?) who drops into an article on private intelligence agencies claims that a quarter of the climate camp were probably "on the payroll" of one agency or another, and that Class War were "state run" in the late 90s -
"Like the state security services, which ended up running Class War in the 1990s after a hugely successful penetration"
Spooky

#yawn#

http://www.londonclasswar.org/newswire/index.php?itemid=283

 

[greenman]

#yawn#

http://www.londonclasswar.org/newswire/index.php?itemid=283

So, using Occams razor, this is another Cointelpro-style disruption and disinfo effort by Machon and/or persons unknown handling her?

As Armstrong appears to be the conduit and patsy of choice he might be worth watching. Certain "freelance" journalists played the same role in the 1980s.

 

[durruti02]

Accusing Scargill of being responsible for the particular defeat of the miners and the more general defeat of the left, has to be the very definition of perverse. On the one hand Thatcher, Ridley, MacGregor et al. and on the other Kinnock, Willis and the rest, would be much more suitable targets for your condemnation.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. which is not the same as seeing Scargill as some sort of working class saint beyond criticism.

sorry not on Mick mcgahy BUT i think sonny is right to an extent on this point louis

.. i am not sure if we know how much the decisions made were scargills BUT i think the decision NOT to have a national strike ballot ( even though yes i KNOW it was NOT needed under NUM rules ) AND the immediate mass flying pickets of yorkshire miners into notts was disasterous

IF there had been a national ballot it is probable that many thousends more notts miners would have come out however reluctantly and IF they had not the argument against them would have been far easier .. is it was, under NUM autonomy, they simply voted against strike ..

and again while it is clear the key was getting notts out, the flying pickets totally and utterly backfired .. i understand WHY those pickets wanted to try to go down into notts but it did NOT work . so it is legitimate to question scargill tactically

 

[durruti02]

So, using Occams razor, this is another Cointelpro-style disruption and disinfo effort by Machon and/or persons unknown handling her?

As Armstrong appears to be the conduit and patsy of choice he might be worth watching. Certain "freelance" journalists played the same role in the 1980s.

Rose of the Observer did .. maybe start a thread as it goes??

 

[tbaldwin]

Sonny, you obviously don't have a fucking Scooby about just how well the NUM played their tactics and strategy before and during the strike.
Let's just say that they did it well enough that the state had to pretty much suborn the executive of an entire NUM region in order to make a chink in the NUM's armour.
Scargill may well have been a mouthy cunt, but he was a bloody good union leader, and held his own against the combined might of the state for over a year while still looking out for the interests of the members. To me that makes him a fuck of a good "general".

To me he was a bloody awful union leader. He saw himself and his views as above everyone elses. Yes he had determination. Yes he hated Thatcher but his politics were and are shit.
The majority of people who lost their jobs in South Wales,Kent,Yorkshire etc have no affection for Scargill.

 

[Belushi]

To me he was a bloody awful union leader. He saw himself and his views as above everyone elses. Yes he had determination. Yes he hated Thatcher but his politics were and are shit.
The majority of people who lost their jobs in South Wales,Kent,Yorkshire etc have no affection for Scargill.

I cant speak for the Yorkshire or Kent men but that certianly isnt true of ex-miners in the valleys ime, despite reservations about some of the things that happened during the strike, most ex-miners ime believe he was right.

 

[The Black Hand]

I cant speak for the Yorkshire or Kent men but that certianly isnt true of ex-miners in the valleys ime, despite reservations about some of the things that happened during the strike, most ex-miners ime believe he was right.

I agree - Arthur is mobbed in popular support when he appears in many former mining areas... Ask Dave Douglass.

 

[The Black Hand]

The majority of people who lost their jobs in South Wales,Kent,Yorkshire etc have no affection for Scargill.

You have no evidence at all for this.

 

[ViolentPanda]

To me he was a bloody awful union leader. He saw himself and his views as above everyone elses. Yes he had determination. Yes he hated Thatcher but his politics were and are shit.

I wasn't aware that I was talking about his politics, in fact it's fairly clear from what I've written on this thread that I wasn't talking about them, or about the man himself, but about his tactics and strategy. He had two choices and he knew it: Give up without a fight, or take the fight to the govt. He knew the plans that Ripley etc had for British Coal and the NUM. Would you have preferred that they hadn't fought? Are you one of those ineffably cretinous people who believe that Scargill precipitated the closures by calling a strike?
I can't believe that even you are that stupid.

The majority of people who lost their jobs in South Wales,Kent,Yorkshire etc have no affection for Scargill.

I knew a couple of families whose menfolk worked Betteshanger for several generations from before WW2 right up until closure. I don't recall any antipathy toward Scargill, the opposite in fact.

 

[trevhagl]

fuck all the divide and rule bollocks