Mental care of Killer condemned

[tommers]

Hi tommers

That is not my experience, I have come across quite a few bipolar people who were sectioned because they were manic, talking a lot, with a short temper, perhaps not making normal sense to the doctors, and appearing somewhat eratic and not themselves.

These people had commited no offences.

In their cases it is the belief that people going through that can sometimes become a danger to themselves or others, or are just not thinking straight, that was I think taken into account in the decision to section.

hi, yeah you are absolutely right, and of course most people get sectioned without doing anything actually wrong. I was a bit rushed when I wrote that last bit but I think I was trying to make a link between people using words such as "imprisonment" or "incarceration" in regards to sections. Anyway, I'm unsure myself now what I meant so I think we can forget it.

 

[Nigel]

SPK? Kill The Doctor Class??

From what I've seen many people caught up, who are considered or do have mental health problems get totally fucked by the modern care industry, especially by subscribing (in my opinion) dangerous medication, which has long term affects, both physiologically and psychologicaly.

The processes of socialisation by so-called experts breaking and almost dehumanising people and then making sure that they 'function' in society, making sure like a frightened child that they accept their subserviant role in accepting authority figures without questioning them.

Mostly done by people who push their social inadequacies patronisingley and condescendingley on people who are in too weak a position to defend themselves.

One example I have seen where an individual was helped who had paronoid schitzsophrenic condition was in a Ploughshare Commuity in Wellingborogh, which set up a community and cooperative for Mentally Handicapped people.

Whether mental health problems are nature or nurture, what I've seen prcesses of socialisation have a significant effect on people afflicted with this condition.

Subordinating and Aneathertising people is not cure but a negative process.

 

[118118]

weltwiet: you seem to be arguing that (some of) these people cannot live their life normally, and are a danger, so everyone wins if they get sectioned!

They live a life, maybe not the life that their family and friends want for them, or even the life that they normally lead. But it is the life that they are living.

If these people were left to lead their delusional lives they could end up without a job and homeless etc. But there must be other ways to deal with social problems rather than funding forced hospitalizations - better programs for the homeless, or something, I don't know. I could also perhaps see this helping with related problems of some degenerative illnesses.

I don't see how, (if something were in place to prevent mentally ill people from sliding down the economic ladder, which invariabley happens anyway) why they should not be allowed to go about their day - after all they are not a nuisance to themselves!

There is such a thing as a psychiatric will - so that people can agree priror to illness to consent to any ttreatment they may need. Why not set one up for yourself?

Why would we be able to act for psychotics, or have rights to do so?

 

[Nigel]

Free Association

What do you reckon to projects to the one I mentioned and possibly(although I have no direct knowledge of it) Whit Lion Free School: What I have read had many 'juvenille delinquents' and children with 'behavioural problems' in it, and was run by some members of DAM(Sol Fed). I may be wrong on this I vagualey remember this being mentioned in a paper 'Bread 'n' Roses' written by Anarchist Communists in 1985 and a discussion I had with someone who reckoned they worked their whilst hitching to the Midlands in the early nineties.

 

[weltweit]

ok 118118

Take the example of a depressed person who is found in their car with the engine running inside a locked garage, they are actually trying to commit suicide. Do they not need or even deserve help? It is not really normal to try to end your life surely this qualifies as someone in need?

 

[Nigel]

Surely it is their own personal autonomy if they want to take their own life.(although the way that they are doing it is a bit anti-social)
Do you think that dosing them up with medication or institutionalising them is the right answer.

 

[weltweit]

Are you saying Nigel that if people are depressed and suicidal and actively trying to kill themselves, that we should not try to help them get back on an even keel and get back some more normal kind of perspective on their troubles?

 

[weltweit]

Oh and the reason that this person is depressed or suicidal may be that she had been raped.

Should they not be helped?

 

[Nigel]

Depends on the circumstances, I don't think I or anyone else has the right to be judgemental on such issues, if someone has seriously decided to take their own life, although personally I would try to dissuade them.

I should imagine one of the main factors of such actions would be loneliness and alienation, these areas of socialisation are what I would suggest are ways to deal with what is called mental illness.

 

[118118]

ok 118118

Take the example of a depressed person who is found in their car with the engine running inside a locked garage, they are actually trying to commit suicide. Do they not need or even deserve help? It is not really normal to try to end your life surely this qualifies as someone in need?

Yes, I certainly think that people should try convince others not commiot suicide. And I would drag that person out of the car, or at least I hope that I would. But thereis a difference between an act to prevent suicide, and involuntary commitment. If involuntary comiotment was just that - an attempt to stop suicide, then fine, but I don;t think that a society should be judged on how many suicides there are. I.e, the success of involuntary comitment should not be judged on its sucess to stop suicide, the what can it be judghed on - stopping nuisances?

 

[weltweit]

Nigel I suspect you may not have known anyone yet who has developed and then suffered from depression. It is a very nasty illness and if it happens to someone you know and care about you will find you will want to help them try to get over it, especially if they are at the end of their tethers. If it is serious and beyond you, then you may ask mental health people to help you.

Thinking that people can just snap out of it on their own accord when they want to, is just silly. No one chooses to feel like that, no one chooses to become suicidal, such people are seriously ill and they need help.

 

[weltweit]

Yes, I certainly think that people should try convince others not commiot suicide. And I would drag that person out of the car, or at least I hope that I would. But thereis a difference between an act to prevent suicide, and involuntary commitment.

But the mental health act says sectioning is permitted when someone is thought to be a danger to themselves or others and their condition is treatable.

What happens is that the mental health professionals, once they become aware of someone, become responsible for that person's wellbeing and the wellbeing of people the person may come into contact with.

When they make a decision, to section and admit or to leave alone in the real world, the risks are plain and they do get this wrong sometimes, it is likely that they err on the side of caution but I know of times when they have got it wrong and people have died.

People who are manic for example, a part of Bipolar or as it used to be called manic depression, can spend lots of money that they do not have, can become very promiscuous threatening their normal relationships and can cause other people to rise up against them because of their behaviour when manic. A manic person can be hurt themselves by others.

So to section or not? Well luckily it is not me who has to make that decision and yes sectioning and the giving of medicine by force (the chemical cosh as it is known) is very traumatic but can they always be certain of the alternative.

If involuntary comiotment was just that - an attempt to stop suicide, then fine, but I don;t think that a society should be judged on how many suicides there are. I.e, the success of involuntary comitment should not be judged on its sucess to stop suicide, the what can it be judghed on - stopping nuisances?

Not sure I follow that bit.

 

[tommers]

weltweit: I always thought the "chemical cosh" related specifically to largactil. I may be wrong.

nigel: of course there are times when people have been prescribed the wrong type of, and too much of, medication but I also know lots and lots of people that have been helped. it is very easy to tar the mental health sector with that brush and, although of course there are cases where things go wrong, it also helps a LOT of people get their lives back on track.

 

[weltweit]

weltweit: I always thought the "chemical cosh" related specifically to largactil. I may be wrong.

Oh tommers you are probably right, is largactil the same as Accuphase ? anyhow when a manic person is admitted in a state they are injected, by force. They are held down by 2 or 4 or more staff. The injection has the effect of shutting them down, putting them to sleep and sometimes when they wake up it is still traumatic for them because they forget where they are and even possibly who they are ..

 

[tommers]

Oh tommers you are probably right, is largactil the same as Accuphase ? anyhow when a manic person is admitted in a state they are injected, by force. They are held down by 2 or 4 or more staff. The injection has the effect of shutting them down, putting them to sleep and sometimes when they wake up it is still traumatic for them because they forget where they are and even possibly who they are ..

yeah... I must admit I don't have a massive amount of experience of mental health wards, I've visited a couple, sat in on a ward round but that's about it. I imagine they are quite up on controlling patients and avoiding difficult situations.

but I don't know.

 

[weltweit]

Well there are different categories of unit, I don't know the details but near me there are secure units and less secure ones where the patients move towards qualifying for varying levels of leave until they are eventually released back to the real world.

I have spent quite a lot of time visiting the local semi secure unit over the last few years and it has been an eye openner for me. There have been all sorts of patients there and I am afraid I have come to a grim understanding of the word patient in the context of mental health.

PATIENT = a PATIENT is one who must wait to be granted permission to return to their families or to their children.

Patient really does mean just that, one who waits.

 

[tommers]

Well there are different categories of unit, I don't know the details but near me there are secure units and less secure ones where the patients move towards qualifying for varying levels of leave until they are eventually released back to the real world.

I have spent quite a lot of time visiting the local semi secure unit over the last few years and it has been an eye openner for me. There have been all sorts of patients there and I am afraid I have come to a grim understanding of the word patient in the context of mental health.

PATIENT = a PATIENT is one who must wait to be granted permission to return to their families or to their children.

Patient really does mean just that, one who waits.

mmmm.. I can see what you mean. I guess the wards I know are semi-secure. patients have leave to go out for 20 mins or whatever, to start with they are accompanied but are allowed out on their own eventually.

they are pretty much the same as most other aspects of the NHS, too many patients, not enough resources.

we use sectioning as an absolutely last resort.

 

[weltweit]

mmmm.. I can see what you mean. I guess the wards I know are semi-secure. patients have leave to go out for 20 mins or whatever, to start with they are accompanied but are allowed out on their own eventually.

Yes the unit nearest me is like that.

I always wonder if the population of the local town realise that people who are not yet deemed safe enough to return to their children or families are deemed ok to wander in their midsts without anyone knowing.

Seems odd to me.

they are pretty much the same as most other aspects of the NHS, too many patients, not enough resources.

we use sectioning as an absolutely last resort.

Yes resources are always limited I understand that.

Plus I understand that even when humans are doing their best it is inevitable that they will make mistakes.

Inevitable.

 

[tommers]

Yes the unit nearest me is like that.

I always wonder if the population of the local town realise that people who are not yet deemed safe enough to return to their children or families are deemed ok to wander in their midsts without anyone knowing.

Seems odd to me.

yeah, I suppose it is. of course families can get involved and get somebody's section withdrawn if they want to. they do actually carry quite a lot of weight, although somebody who is clearly a danger probably wouldn't be released. I had a client who was sectioned after saying he was going to fly to russia to start a revolution / turn into a deer and run off. his family got him out pretty quick.

 

[weltweit]

I did not know that families had any more power than the usual:

Hospital Administrators review

or

Mental health Tribunial review

What can familes do apart from that if someone has been sectioned?

 

[tommers]

I did not know that families had any more power than the usual:

Hospital Administrators review

or

Mental health Tribunial review

What can familes do apart from that if someone has been sectioned?

well, they can go to the tribunal. what I meant was that their opinion / offer of care etc etc is taken into consideration. hence in the example I gave above the family were very much against him being sectioned and he was released a lot earlier than he would have been otherwise. not something that we necessarily agreed with but that was their opinion and prerogative.

 

[weltweit]

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