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4thwrite getting rid of capitalism will involve people being killed and people sacrificing themselves in civil war. That doesn't mean that makes me happy, but I do support using violence to get rid of capitalism (as there is no other option).

If a progressive group in Iraq attacked British bases (there is a war of resistance going on), then I'd support that.
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Personally I thought that the Pentagon was a valid military target on 9.11

But just out of interest, do you think that it would be good tactically for the Iraqi resistance to move its operations to mainland Britain? It certainly didn't seem to yield much results for the IRA, it could also lead to the kinds of attacks on civil liberties that have happened recently post 7/7

It might also damage the anti-war movement among the armed forces and groups such as the Military Families Against the War in the UK.

Have no opinion on this issue, just speculating out loud
Presume you might be able to generate an opinion if they tried to blow you or your family up
 
cockneyrebel said:
To change society will involve people being killed.....

Perhaps but in this theoritical situation you've just wandered into I would still not support or suggest people go blow themselves up; it would be far better to train a soldier to kill the enemy than to kill the enemy and themselves. But anyway, I aint really interested in derailing the thread along those lines (might make a good thread though CR ;)).
 
I thought attacking the Pentagon was fair enough, but not by using a civilian air liner to do it.....

As it goes I don't think that attacking military targets in the UK would be the best tactic, for similar reasons that the Vietnamese didn't think it would be a good idea to attack the mainland US if they had the capability to do so (roughly the same reasons you've listed).

But I wouldn't be against it in principle and wouldn't condemn the Iraqi resistance for doing do. I'd give them "critical support".

It would have been interesting to see the reaction if the London suicide bombers had picked a military target. I think it would have had very different conatations and made it even more difficult for Blair to say Iraq had nothing to do with it.

I wonder what the SWP/RESPECT/Galloway would have said. What do you reckon Udo, serious Q.....
 
Presume you might be able to generate an opinion if they tried to blow you or your family up

If for instance my family was serving in Iraq then I would still support the resistance (indeed my uncle is in the army).....
 
cockneyrebel said:
I'm not in Revo :p

But seriously if a progressive group in Iraq targetted a military base in this country with a suicide bomber why shouldn't people support it?

Does it really matter if the group is progressive or not as long as the base is blown up.

Would a socailist group be progressive or merely install another dictorial hierachy. replacing the koran with Marx's capital. :p

If by progressive you mean the people armed then im for it!

Humour an old makhavellian - nihilst will ya!
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Personally I thought that the Pentagon was a valid military target on 9.11

What a load of bullshit. For that to have been the case the causus belli would have had to be just. It clearly wasn't. You can't take these things in islolation, unless you are a nihilist.

I like Primal Scream, but this reminds me of Bobby Gillespie writing a song called "Bomb the Pentagon". It was pulled from the album post-9/11.
 
kea said:
i'm really going off the bbc at the moment, they seem to have got a lot worse recently. is it just me?
this morning on the Today programme, they interviewed a sister of one of the people killed at kings cross. you know what the first question they asked about was? 'do you think that the current controversy over jean-charles de menezes has distracted attention from your sister's death? '

interview then went on and on about how this shooting malarky is 'a distraction' :mad:
no it's not just you although I went off them a while ago - my eyes were really opened up during their coverage of the Iraq invasion, which particularly distressed me.

I complained about their 'documentary' last night too (what a pile of absolute shite - I was expecting bad but that took the biscuit :rolleyes: :mad: ) The presenter was a completely irritating scumbag - kept cutting people off when they tried to mention Iraqi/Palestinian/etc suffering and refusing to allow those he was witch-hunting to talk within any sort of realistic context. The bit about Israel was foul too - lots of scenes of Palestinian 'terrorists' and yet zilch about the bigger picture. How the fuck do they think they are going to get away with such overt propaganda??? My blood was boiling the whole way through.

The response from them was quite swift but very predictable ("we're not biased - honest" :rolleyes: ):
Thank you for your e-mail regarding 'Panorama Special'.

After the bombing attacks on London, many within the Muslim community here in Britain announced that it was now important to deal head on with the issues that may have helped motivate young British Muslim men to attack their fellow citizens.

The questions which last Sunday's Panorama examined were being raised by members of the Muslim community themselves. They have been raising issues about the direction and role of the Muslim Council of Britain, and the influences on the leadership of the organisation and its affiliates.

Despite some critical comments to the contrary, it is certainly not the case that nearly all the questioning of Sir Iqbal Sacranie was about Israel. In a wide ranging interview with Sir Iqbal, the Secretary General of the Muslim Counsel of Britain, the discussion ranged from his views on the efforts to deal with extremism in some young British Muslims, to the Regents Park mosque declaration, to aspects of the rhetoric of MCB affiliates, and the relationship between religion and politics, as well as dealing with direct questions about suicide attacks and Sir Iqbal's views on the targeting of civilians around the world, including in Israel.

The BBC rejects completely any allegation of institutional or programme bias. Panorama is committed to independent journalistic inquiry and completely rejects the slur that it follows an agenda determined by any interest group. We believe that a fair minded view of Panorama's reporting over many years would support this. This edition remained true to the BBC hallmark of fair and impartial reporting and we are confident that it was a timely contribution to the present debate.

Thank you once again for contacting the BBC.

Regards

BBC Complaints Unit
 
Udo Erasmus said:
Even if some of the claims made by the programme were true, for example it says that the MCB is linked to groups that believe that Islam is a superior ideology to the "British way of life", Is this really a criminal offence?

Presumably many socialists, anarchists etc. believe that a post-revolutionary society would be superior to the British way of life.

The contradiction for Respect is that NO socialist or anarchist would or could regard Islam as a 'superior ideology' of that the implementation of Sharia law would be something worth fighting for.
 
R.I.C.O. said:
It was lazy, ill-thought and pretty ignorant. Wanker Ware dug himself into a deeper intellectually-free hole.

How can he believe Britain is "secular"? We have a head of state who is sworn to "protect the faith" - i.e. Protestantism.

Britain IS secular by the simple fact that the overwhleming majority, have to their credit, no truck with religion of any sort.
 
Joe Reilly said:
Britain IS secular by the simple fact that the overwhleming majority, have to their credit, no truck with religion of any sort.

yes but the british state is formally protestant. which is why our head of state is 'defender of the faith'. which is rather different from being a secular country.
 
Religion is also written into our laws and "constitution".

I think a properly secular society can only come from being republic. Britain is'nt a republic, it is a monarchy, with an unelected head of state, who wears a crown and "protects the faith".
 
kea said:
yes but the british state is formally protestant. which is why our head of state is 'defender of the faith'. which is rather different from being a secular country.

Ok there are over 60 million people in this country. How many define themsleves in terms of their religion? 5%?

The Queen may well be the 'defender of the faith' but the Royal family is shrewd enough not to constantly remind people of that anachronism. In reality most people do not give a fuck about religion. Rightly so. As there is a good case for regarding the genuinely devout; those who follow Scripture or the Koran literally as either cynical manipulators or simply bonkers (think of the West Bank settlers some of whom had a cermony to 'lament' something that happened 350 years B.C.!) in the head.
 
you're not getting this are you. what do you think our official holidays are about? buddhism?
i am talking about THE STATE. you are talking about PEOPLE.
the two are not contradictory.
and the fact remains that this country remains far from an officially secular one, despite people's day to day experiences.

edit: re-reading your post gives me the impression that you think i'm in favour of britain being officially protestant, which is far from the case.
 
Joe Reilly said:
Ok there are over 60 million people in this country. How many define themsleves in terms of their religion? 5%?

The Queen may well be the 'defender of the faith' but the Royal family is shrewd enough not to constantly remind people of that anachronism. In reality most people do not give a fuck about religion. Rightly so. As there is a good case for regarding the genuinely devout; those who follow Scripture or the Koran literally as either cynical manipulators or simply bonkers (think of the West Bank settlers some of whom had a cermony to 'lament' something that happened 350 years B.C.!) in the head.
It's no secret how much of a dedicated Christian our very own PM is (although fuck knows how as he's obviously never heard of the ten commandments for a start :rolleyes: ) so he's not doing much for the image of this supposedly 'secular' country...
 
kea said:
you're not getting this are you. what do you think our official holidays are about? buddhism?
i am talking about THE STATE. you are talking about PEOPLE.
the two are not contradictory.
and the fact remains that this country remains far from an officially secular one, despite people's day to day experiences.

'Officially' Queenie is an unelected head of state. Does that mean we live in an actual dictatorship? (Any day now I hear you say.)
 
The percentage of people in this country that may be secular is irrelevant. The state machine, prominent figures and establishment are still very much entrenched in defending the ideals and power of Christianity and the monarchy in state institutions - from the Queen, the Prime Minister, to the religious leaders such as The Archbishop of Canterbury.

Yep, religion still holds this country in its grip.
 
Joe Reilly said:
'Officially' Queenie is an unelected head of state. Does that mean we live in an actual dictatorship? (Any day now I hear you say.)

We are in what's known as a "constitutional monarchy" - i.e. we are "subjects" of the Queen who is defender of "the faith". Parliament sees itself as being independent of the monarchy but is answerable to the Queen. If you want to be an MP, you have to pledge an oath of allegance to the Queen, who is defender of the protestant faith....
 
Hmm... regarding suicide bombing generally:

Islam comes out pretty strongly against suicide as a general concept however it also believes that it is ok to die in battle (providing you are fighting for a just cause). If you commit ordinary suicide then you will go to hell but if you die in battle (and death was the only likely outcome of you joining in said battle) then you will go to heaven, even though you knew it was a near certainty that you would die. For example, if a powerful army invaded my country and I decided to fight them by planting a bomb near one of their tanks, I would be pretty sure that I would get caught and shot. So by merely deciding to fight this army I was, in effect, committing suicide because I knew I would die.

Islam would define my action not as suicide but as fighting the enemy. So islam does allow for suicide bombing but only in certain circumstances. These circumstances are (strictly speaking) if you are defending your house. If the enemy soldiers are about to enter your house and you have no other means of fighting back then it would be ok to blow yourself up but ONLY if you think you will take some enemy soldiers with you.

This concept of defending your house is extended to mean your country. This is why many muslims are ambivalent (or even supportive) of suicide bombers in Palestine. They see them as defending their country. The Palestinian suicide bombers are not particularly operating outside of islam. The issue starts to get cloudier when they go into Israel to detonate a bomb but they can justify this (islamically) by saying that they consider Israel to be their land.

The issue starts to get cloudier still with suicide bombers in Iraq. Whilst Iraqis may have the right (islamically speaking) to suicide bomb the occupying american force it seems that most of the insurgents are from outside Iraq. These people are adhering to an even more extreme view that suicide bombing is ok not only to defend your house or your country but to defend your faith if you perceive it is under attack. This view would have islam as being a bit like NATO - an attack on one is an attack on all. This view is supported, to some extent, by comments made by Mohammed - that the ummah is like a body and if one part gets sick then the rest of the body feels it but generally it is a fairly outre view of islam and not mainstream. A true jihad would only be generated by a concerted attempt to eradicate islam. It is not encumbent on every muslim to go and fight every time a muslim country gets into a minor war. Thus there has not really been a true jihad since the time of Mohammed (when there were some attempts made to fight his tribe).

The whole issue gets even cloudier when one considers 9/11 and 7/7. These people are not defending their house, or even their country, or even their religion (except by a very tortuous line of reasoning). It's important to draw a distinction between Hamas and al Q. Hamas see themselves as engaging in defensive jihad but al Q are into the idea of offensive jihad - fighting to establish the true islam. Offensive jihad is a more controversial idea and not particularly a big part of islam in this day and age. Although it is a very old idea and the early muslims swept across North Africa in military conquest. Offensive jihad may still be within the boundaries of islam but only when islam is strong enough to be able to accomplish it.

Offensive jihad was most recently promulgated by Abdullah Azzam, although they trace their ideas back to approx the 13th century. Azzam was a lecturer at a University in Jeddah and Bin Laden was a student there at the same time so this is where they probably first met. They fought together in Afghanistan but disagreed over some issues. Azzam wanted to concentrate on attacking "un-islamic" regimes in the muslim world whereas Bin Laden wanted to attack the west as well. Azzam was killed in 1989 by landmines which were detonated as his car approached. No one knows who killed him but one possibility was that it was Bin Laden. Many radicalist websites and organisations use the word Azzam in their name.

Anyway, the main point I wanted to make was that many people say that suicide bombing is a tactic of a desperate people who have no hope. I don't think this is entirely true. It may be true of the Palestinians to some extent but I think people need to realise that there is also an ideological justification for it which allows for it to used as a weapon of choice. Iraq, 9/11, 7/7 and others should really be enough to put this idea (that it is solely a tactic of the oppressed) to bed. The people that commit suicide bombings in lands other than their own think they are acting within the limits allowed by islam and thus will go to heaven.

Azzam's teachings have lots of flaws (even from a conservative islamic perspective) but I guess hotheaded youngsters that want to fight injustice rarely stop to actually think about what they are doing. Problem is though they only mix with people who agree with them. Classic terrorist cell mentality - they all reaffirm each others ideas. This cell mentality has been shown in all terrorist cells around the world, muslim or not (including IRA, Bader-Meinhof, Tamil Tigers etc).

The problem with cell mentality is - suppose I am in a cell with 5 other people and they all agree with each other. Do I agree with them because 5 people can't be wrong or do I form the conclusion that the other 5 are actually a bit dumb and I don't want to associate with them any more? I could find 5 other people who would all say different things to that group, or another 5 who would say yet different things. In fact, you can find lots of groups of 5 people in the world who will all say different things. I think as a general rule you should not listen to other people so much and only listen to yourself. Herds are for cows not humans.
 
This is all mere formality. Was the USSR socialist? It described itslef as such. Is that enough?

There's a historic tendency amongst lefties and anarchists in this country to tilt at the monarchy and the C of E even though they're almost purley symbolic (yes, they're nasty outadted symbols of a deference that no longer exists - if it ever actually did) to the detriment of examining the real power realtions which these things rest upon and are manifestations of. They're the froth, not the pint.
 
It's also noteworthy that things like the monarchy, the public schools etc are often invoked by rightwingers (like Andrew Neil, or Johnny Canuck) in pursuit of the idea that a class system is actually just about snobbery rather than inequality and that the free market is a meritocracy. The fact that social mobility is not really any greater in societies lacking these superannuated institutions is something they like to gloss over.
 
butchersapron said:
This is all mere formality. Was the USSR socialist? It described itslef as such. Is that enough?

There's a historic tendency amongst lefties and anarchists in this country to tilt at the monarchy and the C of E even though they're almost purley symbolic (yes, they're nasty outadted symbols of a deference that no longer exists - if it ever actually did) to the detriment of examining the real power realtions which these things rest upon and are manifestations of. They're the froth, not the pint.

I wouldn't call the millions they have froth nor the money we pay for them...
 
Kid_Eternity said:
I wouldn't call the millions they have froth nor the money we pay for them...
Compared to the power and wealth of the wider system that it rests upon it clearly is. Compared to what's in your pocket maybe not.
 
butchersapron said:
Compared to the power and wealth of the wider system that it rests upon it clearly is. Compared to what's in your pocket maybe not.
Maybe so but i'd still not want to be out of pocket becuase of them.
 
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