MCB Watch

[R.I.C.O.]

UK needs to be on guard - American Style Anti-Arabism is being imported to the UK

Daniel Pipes Watch - Pipe's Blog of Bile
Daniel Pipes Watch: Al Qaeda linked Muslim Council of Britain

Daniel Pipes is an absolute lunatic!

 

[Wilf]

What was the context of his advocacy? Did he just say "I support suicide bombers" and that was it?

Can't remember exact words, but presumably the repeated attaqcks made by Israel on the occupied lands. Lets be clear, i support the right of the Palestianians to fight back against Israel. but do i think sending yound ppl to kill themselves and blow up a bus or a cafe - with promises of martyrdom in some afterlife - is the best way to do it? No.

By the way, do you support the strategy of suicide bombings?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

What was the context of his advocacy? Did he just say "I support suicide bombers" and that was it?

No he condemned suicide bombings in the west, but said that in specific instances when a country was under military occupation we have to look at the context - he takes much the same line as the left that despair and the brutality of the occupation is the cause of young men and women blowing themselves up

The full transcript of the panorama programme, can be found below.
Note the hectoring tone of the interviewer, frequent interruptions when the interviewee is speaking and the demand that complex questions be answered with an immediate yes or no:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/4171950.stm

 

[Kid_Eternity]

By the way, do you support the strategy of suicide bombings?

No but I can understand why someone would fight an occupation like that.

 

[kea]

Can't remember exact words, but presumably the repeated attaqcks made by Israel on the occupied lands. Lets be clear, i support the right of the Palestianians to fight back against Israel. but do i think sending yound ppl to kill themselves and blow up a bus or a cafe - with promises of martyrdom in some afterlife - is the best way to do it? No.

By the way, do you support the strategy of suicide bombings?

surely the point is that whatever someone's view on suicide bombings (or many of the other issues touched on by the programme last nite), they should be able to express it, rahter than having someone standing over them shouting 'do you believe in suicide bombing? DO YOU??? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THIS FILTH?!'
which is basically what the prog last nite was like.

i wanted to actually hear what these people had to say FOR THEMSELVES; not what wanky ware had to say about them.

 

[R.I.C.O.]

John Ware the Wanker

Its always the fucking reductionist monothought clique....

I understand the suffering of Palestinians and the reasons why some extreme elements take their lives through desperation, which obviously means that according to the right-wing press and shoddy research by "terrorism experts" (a.k.a. lazy freelance journalists in the pay of Rupert Murdoch who advocate the reactionary "Clash of Civilisations thesis"), I obviously support suicide bombings.....

Its not just extremely tedious - its ignorant and lazy.

 

[Wilf]

surely the point is that whatever someone's view on suicide bombings (or many of the other issues touched on by the programme last nite), they should be able to express it, rahter than having someone standing over them shouting 'do you believe in suicide bombing? DO YOU??? HOW CAN YOU JUSTIFY THIS FILTH?!'
which is basically what the prog last nite was like.

i wanted to actually hear what these people had to say FOR THEMSELVES; not what wanky ware had to say about them.

Agree with you 100%. Was a total lack of investigative journalism and Ware was simply throwing quotes at Sacrani nicked off web sites. None of that though gets rid of the real issues and connections.

 

[Wilf]

Its always the fucking reductionist monothought clique....

I understand the suffering of Palestinians and the reasons why some extreme elements take their lives through desperation, .

Yes, the Palestinians are driven to despair - but its not just personal despair that drives them to suicide bombing is it? What about the system of religious lies and pressures that teach them that paradise awaits? What about the old men who 'manage' processes of martyrdom?

My point is that these aren't acts of personal desparation a la Jan Palack (sp?).

 

[kea]

None of that though gets rid of the real issues and connections.

obviously. which i'd feel a lot more able to debate had ware let people actually have their say

i'm really going off the bbc at the moment, they seem to have got a lot worse recently. is it just me?
this morning on the Today programme, they interviewed a sister of one of the people killed at kings cross. you know what the first question they asked about was? 'do you think that the current controversy over jean-charles de menezes has distracted attention from your sister's death? '

interview then went on and on about how this shooting malarky is 'a distraction'

 

[districtline]

a lot of swappies coming out in support of their muslim friends. two groups of reactionaries supporting each other, no surprise there.

 

[kea]

just had a response from the bbc -

Thank you for your e-mail regarding 'Panorama Special'.

After the bombing attacks on London, many within the Muslim community here in
Britain announced that it was now important to deal head on with the issues that
may have helped motivate young British Muslim men to attack their fellow
citizens.

The questions which last Sunday's Panorama examined were being raised by members
of the Muslim community themselves. They have been raising issues about the
direction and role of the Muslim Council of Britain, and the influences on the
leadership of the organisation and its affiliates.

Despite some critical comments to the contrary, it is certainly not the case
that nearly all the questioning of Sir Iqbal Sacranie was about Israel. In a
wide ranging interview with Sir Iqbal, the Secretary General of the Muslim
Counsel of Britain, the discussion ranged from his views on the efforts to deal
with extremism in some young British Muslims, to the Regents Park mosque
declaration, to aspects of the rhetoric of MCB affiliates, and the relationship
between religion and politics, as well as dealing with direct questions about
suicide attacks and Sir Iqbal's views on the targeting of civilians around the
world, including in Israel.

The BBC rejects completely any allegation of institutional or programme bias.
Panorama is committed to independent journalistic inquiry and completely rejects
the slur that it follows an agenda determined by any interest group. We
believe that a fair minded view of Panorama's reporting over many years would
support this. This edition remained true to the BBC hallmark of fair and
impartial reporting and we are confident that it was a timely contribution to
the present debate.

Thank you once again for contacting the BBC.

Regards

BBC Complaints Unit

seems like a round-robin email, it certainly doesn't address the points i made.

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Yes, the Palestinians are driven to despair - but its not just personal despair that drives them to suicide bombing is it? What about the system of religious lies and pressures that teach them that paradise awaits? What about the old men who 'manage' processes of martyrdom?

My point is that these aren't acts of personal desparation a la Jan Palack (sp?).

The high level of suicide bombings began in Palestine in 1994 after it was becoming clear that the "peace process" had failed to deliver any tangible change to everyday life for Palestinian, if religion was the major factor leading to suicide bombings - why was this form of resistance not widespread prior to this period?

Secular groups such as the PFLP and Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade have also used this tactic.

The tactic has been used by the secular Tamil Tigers and in many other countries, it is not widespread in the Middle East except in countries under occupation.

Indeed, I would argue that occupation seems to be one of the key causes of suicide bombings.

In Palestine, many forms of resistance including a mass civilian uprising in 1987 were employed against the 4th largest military in the world (backed by the worlds only superpower). The wave of suicide bombings that began in the mid-90s has to be seen in the context that given the present balance of power, there seems to be no hope that Palestine will ever be free

 

[districtline]

seems fair enough to me. i long for the day when even european socialists would start criticise reactionary muslim(s) policies. or as an iranian communist once told me: "it's so diffucult for us because the ones we struggle against in the muslim world are being supported by our (socialist) comrades in the west".

 

[R.I.C.O.]

a lot of swappies coming out in support of their muslim friends. two groups of reactionaries supporting each other, no surprise there.

Got anything to say about the programme, numbnuts, or are you just shitstirring?

 

[Udo Erasmus]

seems fair enough to me. i long for the day when even european socialists would start criticise reactionary muslim(s) policies. or as an iranian communist once told me: "it's so diffucult for us because the ones we struggle against in the muslim world are being supported by our (socialist) comrades in the west".

It is quite acceptable to criticise reactionary Muslim policies and reactionary Christian policies but when the media and establishment zoom-in on one group and want to carry out a witch-hunt and create hysteria and a moral panic around one particular group in society, we have to ask why? Does it further socialist aims by lining up with Blair, Blunkett, the Daily Express et al

As I stated earlier it is to further there own agenda (not a progressive one), an agenda that socialists oppose that Muslims are currently being attacked

For example, I have no problem with attacking brutal dictators like Saddam Hussein, but when Donald Rumsfeld who visited him twice to sell him weapons starts sounding off, forgive me if I don't line myself up with Rumsfeld, and instead wonder if there might not be another agenda

 

[cockneyrebel]

Why would someone be for or against suicide bombings anyway?! Surely it depends what they're used for. It would be like saying you are against SA-10 shoulder held missile launcher (I made that up but something like that!), but ok with a tank.

If suicide bombers are used against military targets and someone wants to blow themselves up for a progressive cause why should people be against it? Any more than someone running over the top of a trench.

 

[Herbert Read]

Why would someone be for or against suicide bombings anyway?! Surely it depends what they're used for. It would be like saying you are against SA-10 shoulder held missile launcher (I made that up but something like that!), but ok with a tank.

If suicide bombers are used against military targets and someone wants to blow themselves up for a progressive cause why should people be against it? Any more than someone running over the top of a trench.

You thinking of getting revo to target certain bases

 

[districtline]

Got anything to say about the programme, numbnuts, or are you just shitstirring?

shitstirring i'll respond to udo's message as soon as i get my computer to work properly again...

 

[Wilf]

It is quite acceptable to criticise reactionary Muslim policies and reactionary Christian policies

Okay then, fire away:

 

[cockneyrebel]

You thinking of getting revo to target certain bases

I'm not in Revo

But seriously if a progressive group in Iraq targetted a military base in this country with a suicide bomber why shouldn't people support it?

 

[kea]

oh and another thing from last nite's programme - "you've criticised secularism - this is a SECULAR COUNTRY!!!'
um, no it isn't john me old chum, it's a christian country. don't let that put you off your stride tho, you were doing so well. ever considered a job in the Inquisition?

 

[R.I.C.O.]

On one hand:

Sharia Law
Dhimmis
Living your life by the word of the Qu'ran
Infallability of the word of "Mohammed" and "The Prophets"

On the other:

Anti-homosexuality
Anti-abortion
Living your life by the word of The Bible
Infallability of the word of Pope Benedict XVI, "God" and "Jesus"

Religion is in my opinion, a cruel, repressive business - whatever "faith" you decide to believe in. Living your life by the word of a book is'nt healthy...

 

[Wilf]

I'm not in Revo

But seriously if a progressive group in Iraq targetted a military base in this country with a suicide bomber why shouldn't people support it?

Okay then, lets follow this up: which of the Jihadi or 'Insurgent' groups currently using suicide bombers in Iraq would you like to blow up a british base?

 

[R.I.C.O.]

oh and another thing from last nite's programme - "you've criticised secularism - this is a SECULAR COUNTRY!!!'
um, no it isn't john me old chum, it's a christian country. don't let that put you off your stride tho, you were doing so well. ever considered a job in the Inquisition?

It was lazy, ill-thought and pretty ignorant. Wanker Ware dug himself into a deeper intellectually-free hole.

How can he believe Britain is "secular"? We have a head of state who is sworn to "protect the faith" - i.e. Protestantism.

 

[cockneyrebel]

Okay then, lets follow this up: which of the Jihadi or 'Insurgent' groups currently using suicide bombers in Iraq would you like to blow up a british base?

Say the WCPI decided to join in the insurgency (which they should do) and they bombed a military base in this country using a suicide bomber. Wouldn't you support them.

I'm deliberately using a left group as an example to avoide the whole debate about "victory to the resistance" etc.....

Or secular groups in Palestine that use suicide bombers to attack military targets as another example.

 

[Kid_Eternity]

I'm not in Revo

But seriously if a progressive group in Iraq targetted a military base in this country with a suicide bomber why shouldn't people support it?

Hmmmm, i'm not sure about that. I'd prefer to "support" some other solution than sending the message that killing yourself for your cause is a good idea...

 

[cockneyrebel]

I'd prefer to "support" some other solution than sending the message that killing yourself for your cause is a good idea...

To change society will involve people being killed.....

 

[Wilf]

Say the WCPI decided to join in the insurgency (which they should do) and they bombed a military base in this country using a suicide bomber. Wouldn't you support them.

Yeah, I'd be absolutely delighted Each funeralwould make me happier and happier

I'm deliberately using a left group as an example to avoide the whole debate about "victory to the resistance" etc

I noticed

 

[R.I.C.O.]

To change society will involve people being killed.....

Killing John Ware would be a start.....

 

[Udo Erasmus]

Say the WCPI decided to join in the insurgency (which they should do) and they bombed a military base in this country using a suicide bomber. Wouldn't you support them.

I'm deliberately using a left group as an example to avoide the whole debate about "victory to the resistance" etc.....

Or secular groups in Palestine that use suicide bombers to attack military targets as another example.

Personally I thought that the Pentagon was a valid military target on 9.11

But just out of interest, do you think that it would be good tactically for the Iraqi resistance to move its operations to mainland Britain? It certainly didn't seem to yield much results for the IRA, it could also lead to the kinds of attacks on civil liberties that have happened recently post 7/7

It might also damage the anti-war movement among the armed forces and groups such as the Military Families Against the War in the UK.

Have no opinion on this issue, just speculating out loud