Maybe It's The Veil?

[ViolentPanda]

Panda: "It is a lie, spread by those among a particular mindset, to claim Arabs originated in al Hejaz.": OK, please educate me. Where did they originate?

Oh dear.
The problem here is that I, ViolentPanda, didn't say that. Go have a look at post #49.
What I said was "Absolutely, although it's a belief prevalent among a certain political mindset.", in agreement with the above statement, which was tangentlama's.

"It is a lie to say all Arabic speakers share the same religion.": I agree, that one came from Tangent's mind.

Of course it did, it was tangentlama who said it, so it could scarcely have come from anyone else's mind.
What I said was "Not just a lie, but pure foolishness, given the many examples of relict Arabic-speaking Christians (to give but one example).", again in agreement with tangentlama's statement (again, see post #49).

If you're going to attempt to castigate someone, may I suggest that you do so on the basis of what they actually write, and double-check that they did actually write what you decide to attribute to them?

"Has anyone said U75 should be Zionist free?": Noooo, but when I first posted here, my very first post, I was reamed out simply for being Israeli. Ergo, most would never dream of posting on this site and indeed I have had much corrspondance to that effect.

Whether some posters have "reamed" you out for being Israeli is beside the point, as is the volume of posts you've purportedly had from people patting you on the back.

"Why do you bother?" "Why cast pearls?" "Why lower and debase yourself?" I will not repeat my primary and secondary rationale as I have expressed it enough in this forum but given the atmosphere on this site I think they should count themselves lucky anyone with an alternative viewpoint even bothers spending time here.

I have no doubt that the preceeding comment will elicit laughs and derision but it is the truth. The more perspectives the richer the experience but that would not occurr to most here and that is just sympotimatic of what is wrong here.

There's an old English saying that goes something like "it's not what you say, it's how you say it", which is possibly apposite to your contributions.

"Most anti-Zionists do not hate the State of Israel.": WHAT? That is, no offence, a ridiculous statement. Israel, as you MUST know, is a Zionist State. It retains this character partly due to the UN Mandate that it exist as such. ISRAEL IS THE PRODUCT OF ZIONISM. It is the realisation of Zionist ideology and to suggest anti-Zionists do not hate Israel is non-sensical at best.

Oh dear. ANOTHER example of Rachamim misquoting.
what I actually said (post #50 for anyone who wants to check) was "Most anti-Zionists don't hate Israel, they don't even hate the state of Israel (which is a different thing from the IDEAL of Israel).".
Now I know you have a fondness for accusing me of semantic games, but if someone who claims your breadth of education can't see the difference between your "quote" and what I actually said, then you're frankly wonko.
BTW, to elucidate, the state of Israel is the not solely the product of Zionism. As you're ever so keen to keep telling us, there's been a Jewish presence there long before 47-48.
I'm an anti-Zionist and I don't hate the ideal of Israel or the state of Israel. What I hate are the acts excused by Zionists and others that have been carried out by the state of Israel in pursuit of it's perpetuation, just as I hate the acts of other states (including my own) in pursuit of their own perpetuation. Oppression isn't excusable, whatever the reason.

What do they hate then? Well of course ZIONISM. Is Israel the product of this ideology? Of course. And?
"Show Panda anyone but a tiny demogrpahic among anti-Zionists who actually believe that Israel should be returned to Islamic Nationalists,etc..": That one is just too easy. HAMAS? al Akhsa? PRC? Hezbollah? I could name a total of 27 organisations just within Israel, Gaza, and the so called "WEst Bank," before starting on other Arab Nations. Then, after taking up a couple of more pages I could begin with non-Arab anti-Zionist organisations and so on. I also wish to remind you that your use of the word "coc%-suc&er" is atrocious in relation to another poster. Why do you find it so difficult to be civil?

A fourth misquote/misrepresentation in this post. Are you going for a record?
What I actually said (post #50 again, pop-pickers) was "Show me any anti-Zionist besides a small fringe of extremists who believe that and I'll apologise for stating the above truth,".
That's "any anti-Zionist", Rachamim, so your impromptu lecture, fascinating as I'm sure it may have been, is entirely misplaced.

As for my incivility, let's just say that I'm polite to those who deserve courtesy. JHE spouts Islamophobia at every opportunity, so I call him on it just as often as I'd call any poster (and there are a few) who spouts Judaeophobia. As for my incivility to you, I believe that this post of yours that I'm answering, replete as it is with misrepresentations and misquotations, illustrates why I don't believe that you are deserving of courtesy.

"Is JHE saying that mods incorrectly ban Zionist posters?": I cannot of course speak for JHE. Speaking for myself I dcannot say either way. I CAN say that people holding Zionist views HAVE been called out more than others and this is a fact. For example, I am sure we will not see your use of "co^-suc&er" being admonished but let someone such as myself use it towards another poster and I can guarantee you that I will be banned. Go figure.

Actually, if you stirred your weary bones to read the site's FAQs, you'd find that strong language is allowed.
But hey, if the idea of being martyred for swearing makes you pop a boner, who am I to disabuse you by referring you to the FAQs, eh?

Panda: "Rachamim WAS reported and DID have a thread devoted to banning him.": Actually Panda it is much more on both counts but I do respect an attempt at factuality.

But only about as much as I respect an attempt at patronisation, I suspect.

 

[Grandma Death]

If you're going to attempt to castigate someone, may I suggest that you do so on the basis of what they actually write, and double-check that they did actually write what you decide to attribute to them?

Or better still he could use the quote toggle. Then he wouldn't be consistently misquoting people (deliberate or not).

 

[Grandma Death]

If you're going to attempt to castigate someone, may I suggest that you do so on the basis of what they actually write, and double-check that they did actually write what you decide to attribute to them?

Or better still he could use the quote toggle. Then he wouldn't be consistently misquoting people (deliberate or not).

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm glad that the point was so relevant that you felt the need to reply to it twice!!

 

[Grandma Death]

I'm glad that the point was so relevant that you felt the need to reply to it twice!!

I'll keep repeating it too in the hope that maybe one day he'll sit up and take notice.

 

[rachamim18]

Dexter: " The nation of 'Palestine' was in 'Raiders of the Lost Ark'.": Hahahah, ok.

PK: " 'Palestine' was on many maps.": As well it should be. The last independant Jewish Nation ceased to exist there in 70 CE/AD (albeit fighting on until the mid 2nd Century CE/AD). This event transpired due to Roman invasion and domination.

After finally defeating the last of the Jewish Armies the Romans renamed Jerusalem and then the entire land. The word "Palestine" is Latin, from Middle Greek, and means "Land of the Philistines." This was done to spite Jews since the Romans considered the Philistines to be the worst enemies of the Jews, despite the Philistines having been extinct since a bit after 1000 BCE/BC.

From about 400 CE/AD the title "Palestine" was universally applied to the land, encompassing all of Gaza, Israel Proper, the so called "WB," and Jordan. All of those lands, or rather all excepting a tiny portion of Jordan were historically Jewish. Hence their inclusion under this anti-Jewish label.

Arabs came to the land long after the name was applied. ALL people living there including Jews were called "Palestinians." Only 1948 and thereafter have Arabs been considered THE "Palestinians." They coopted the name as they did the land but neither is accurate in any way.

"Arabs lived there for hundreds of years.": The first ones came in the very late 7th Century CE/AD as far as permanant residents. The vast majority though only came in the latter half of the Ottoman Era so that we are talking about a mere 300 odd years. Of that time period, most came in the last 150 years, i.e. late 18th Century CE/AD.

"Just because Jews hired fancy lawyers...": I do not understand your point. Jews have not had to hire any lawyers because Israel has never been charged in any International Court on ANY issue.

It is more than a bit ironic when you talk of Jews having burned crops, poisoned wells, and squatted in houses when that is EXACTLY what Arabs did to establish themselves on THAT land!

The land you call the "WB?" Its true name is , in English, Judea and Samaria. Neither Judeans or Samaritans are Arab. Gaza? Jews were there in the days of King David and ruling it as part of an independant homeland. Arabs only came in the 1800s! Jerusalem? Until the very early 1800s Jews were the vast majority!!!

"Recognising pre-67 borders.": Here is the thing. Arab terrorism began in 1920. The PLO was officialy established in 1964 (although some incorrectly state 1965). What borders? Arabs fight because they want ALL the land. This is why they refused repatriation in 1949, 1950, and finally over a 20 year period ending in 1970! It is not about some fictitious "Occupation." It is quite simply about Israel's very existence.

Not only does HAMAS openly say this, even the PLO and most of the PA!!! They believe in Victory In Stages as they call it in Arabic. To believe that Arabs would be satisfied with 67 Borders is beyond naive. In fact, even suggesting 1947/1948 Borders is naive.

Most people shouting about the Greenline are ignorant. The Greenline represents DEFACTO Borders established with the 1949 Armistice, not any kind of UN vision or Ratification. It is the line established in the wake of Israel's victory in the 1948 War/War of Independance. The actual proposed Borders are quite, quite different.

So, I ask you, where does it stop? Does it stop with the 67 Borders? With the 47/48 Borders? Or does it stop, as both HAMAS and the PLO state, with Israel's utter destruction? Even the so called "1 State Solution" crowd talk of a state for both Arab and Jew WITHIN AN ARAB STATE. In other words, just as Israel now has a "Jewish Character," and 25 established nations have an"Arab Character," so will the proposed single state of "Palestine" have its own "Arab Character."

Israel envisons 1967 lines with the addition of 4 to 6% of so called "WB" land comprised of the areas of greatest Jewish population and most significant cultural and religious importance.

 

[rachamim18]

G:" Arabs like Israelis need to learn that peace comes form compromise, not war.": Yes, Arabs DO. Israel however has been compromising since 1919. The very first offer made by Britain, to both sides, was accepted by Zionists and rejected by Arabs. This then set the pattern that would follow up until the present. Until Oslo not one offer was accepted by Arabs.

While Arabs did sign Oslo I and the follwing agreement popularly known as Oslo II although it was it physically devloped there and neither grew directly out of Oslo I, they never abided by either one so that they are utterly meaningless.

 

[sleaterkinney]

How the fuck is rachamim still here?

I seriously don't know, if a poster posted up stuff like this they'd be gone within minutes.

Scum who take a different view should be banned.

No, No, No. This guy isn't here for rational debate. He lies, trolls etc.

 

[Belushi]

Okay, let me get this straight, theres a camel show (much like a dog show) and Rach's implying the arabs shag camels?

 

[Gmart]

G:" Arabs like Israelis need to learn that peace comes form compromise, not war.": Yes, Arabs DO. Israel however has been compromising since 1919.

Not enough by far.

 

[rachamim18]

Belushi: Nope, not at all. Actually, another poster (Yossarian) DID post an article in this thread about a Jew marrying a dolphin and presumably boffing it. The article simply reports an actual contest to promote good bredding stock. The title is from the actual article, written by Arabs for Arabs on a Lebanese media site.

Sleater: Sounds like you have some sort of problem with Arabs and their culture. If it disturbs you so much why post in a Mid-East forum?

G: We already know your view. Israel should cease its existence as a Zionist State and instead become the 26th Arab Nation. Thanks byut no thanks. I think most, including msyelf, will take a pass on that idea.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'll keep repeating it too in the hope that maybe one day he'll sit up and take notice.

Not likely to happen. It's about as probable as him apologising for the disgusting mess of a post he made where he misrepresented and misquoted me FOUR times.

 

[nino_savatte]

Sleater: Sounds like you have some sort of problem with Arabs and their culture. If it disturbs you so much why post in a Mid-East forum?

Projecting again, Rachamim? We all know how much you hate Arabs - you've started enough posts and threads on the subject.

 

[Gmart]

G: We already know your view. Israel should cease its existence as a Zionist State and instead become the 26th Arab Nation. Thanks byut no thanks. I think most, including msyelf, will take a pass on that idea.

You do yourself no favours by using such a blatant strawman. As if I would state something so ridiculous!

I wish to see a single state solution with all these vastly different people unified as one nation. As opposed to the current pretense towards a two state solution which will just polorise the conflict and perpetuate it for far longer than it need be.

One wonders how bad things need to get before you finally accept the need for real and actual compromise. When will you finally recognise that your viewpoint might well make sense to you, and yet, it is failing to cause peace, and so should have been jettisoned some time ago.

Sooner or later this will become apparent and the one state solution will be the only move left to play.

 

[rachamim18]

G: You do not even understand your own words! You say you wish for a Single State Solution. Guess what? That means negating the Zionist, i.e. Jewish character of the State of Israel. Ergo you DO advocate extinguishing the Zionist State.

If national suicide is the only way to peace I pray it never comes. Israel has a right to exist just like the 25 other Arab Nations in existence. Each of those nations had vibrant Jewish Communities prior to Israel and each of them kicked their Jews out after murdering and torturing significant amounts. 1 million Jews were refugees losing 100 billion US 1948 dollars in assets and have managed to go on with their lives. 490,000 Arabs WERE refugees, now they are less than 30,000 (taking into account only refugees from Israel Proper still alive and not their decendants, and minusing those who have taken advantage of the 3 previous offers of Return). They have collectively gotten 10 miliion US dolalrs and were afforded the Right of Return 3 times over a 21 or 22 year period. Enough is enough. We agreed to coexist with their state to be founded in Gaza and the "WB." We first agreed to coexistence in 1919 and neve ronce reneged in this sentiment. What more do you or anyone else expect?

Does it bother you that neither side wants the 1 State solution? Who are you, as a foreigner with no connections to try and make others carry your line? It wil never happen because if anything, more and more think the oopposite way so that today aside form cross-dressing Khadaffi and communists in Israel and the PA noone else even makes the suggestion. It is ridiculous.

 

[nino_savatte]

Does it bother you that neither side wants the 1 State solution?

Neither side? You'll have to qualify this...sorry.

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Qualify the statement." Well, since the Israeli Govt. is the side negotiating for Israel, and the PA is the side negotiating for the "Palestinians," it is VERY easily qualified.

The only organisations who want such a thing, in terms of Israelis is the ICP (Israeli Communist Party). For "Palestinians" it is the DFLP and PFLP although even there it is for a "1 State" with "Arab Charcter" so that it is not a true "1 State." Even the ICP wants NO character so that there is noone truly in search of a "1 State Solution."

As for foreign entities, only Mohamar in the Mumu wants it and he too envisons a "1 State" with "Arab Character."

 

[nino_savatte]

The ICP aren't Zionists, so that stands to reason.

You're going to have to offer some proof for your other assertions.

 

[T & P]

Nino: "Qualify the statement." Well, since the Israeli Govt. is the side negotiating for Israel, and the PA is the side negotiating for the "Palestinians," it is VERY easily qualified.

The only organisations who want such a thing, in terms of Israelis is the ICP (Israeli Communist Party). For "Palestinians" it is the DFLP and PFLP although even there it is for a "1 State" with "Arab Charcter" so that it is not a true "1 State." Even the ICP wants NO character so that there is noone truly in search of a "1 State Solution."

As for foreign entities, only Mohamar in the Mumu wants it and he too envisons a "1 State" with "Arab Character."

What's with putting the word Palestinians in inverted commas then?

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: Simply use a search engine and examine DFLP and PFLP's Platforms. That should quantify it for you.

TP: The word "Palestinian" is a word frought with contention. It did not denote a People until 1948 and only then because Israel became an independant nation. Prior to 1948 the word described each and every person born in and/or living in the British Mandate of 'Palestine.' This means jordanians, Gazans, people from the so called "WB," and of course people living in Israel Proper.

As I often state, my own dad was "Palestinian." The British made it so when his birth certificate was issued.

It is like the term "West Bank." The so called "WB" is actually two lands, Judea and Samaria as they are known in English. Words gain currency, like that one or "Palestinian" and to communicate one must recognise that. At the same time, if one hopes to retain some modicum of integrity they need to never forget that these lables do not accurately reflect the history or the dynamic involved.

A more apt term for "Palestinian" would be "regional Arab." "Palestinians" themselves used to call themselves "Southern Syrians." When allowing them to coopt the word one also allwos them to try and sell diluted and revised history. the word means "Land of the Phillistines." The Phillistines were a proto-Greek People of the Mycenean Culture on Crete.

Arabs on the other hand are originally from al Hejaz in what is now Saudi Arabia. By hook or by crook they ended up in the lands in question but that does not then make them Greeks OR indigenous. It also does NOT negate their right to self determination. It merely accurately and honestly denotes their Peoplehood.

 

[Gmart]

Ergo you DO advocate extinguishing the Zionist State.

This lot seem alright with that idea. After all it reeks of preferring one religion over another, or one race, which is an archaic idea with no place in a modern world of course.

 

[T & P]

TP: The word "Palestinian" is a word frought with contention. It did not denote a People until 1948 and only then because Israel became an independant nation. Prior to 1948 the word described each and every person born in and/or living in the British Mandate of 'Palestine.' This means jordanians, Gazans, people from the so called "WB," and of course people living in Israel Proper.

As I often state, my own dad was "Palestinian." The British made it so when his birth certificate was issued.

It is like the term "West Bank." The so called "WB" is actually two lands, Judea and Samaria as they are known in English. Words gain currency, like that one or "Palestinian" and to communicate one must recognise that. At the same time, if one hopes to retain some modicum of integrity they need to never forget that these lables do not accurately reflect the history or the dynamic involved.

A more apt term for "Palestinian" would be "regional Arab." "Palestinians" themselves used to call themselves "Southern Syrians." When allowing them to coopt the word one also allwos them to try and sell diluted and revised history. the word means "Land of the Phillistines." The Phillistines were a proto-Greek People of the Mycenean Culture on Crete.

Arabs on the other hand are originally from al Hejaz in what is now Saudi Arabia. By hook or by crook they ended up in the lands in question but that does not then make them Greeks OR indigenous. It also does NOT negate their right to self determination. It merely accurately and honestly denotes their Peoplehood.

That's all very well but in that case the word Israeli should also be found itself between inverted commas. Unless there is another reason or meaning for the word Palestinian to be.

 

[rachamim18]

G: I have already told you about Neteuri Karta as well as speaking about them at length in this forum. They are a bunch of wackos who have been excommunicated by even other anti-Zionist Jews. They number about 6 thousand worldwide. They believe that it is a sin to found the State of Israel UNTIL the Messiah comes.

They are not against Zionism per se, only against a Jewish Nation until the Messiah comes, and in fact work quite actrively with Arabs and Muslims in general, including terrorists, to try and bring about an ARAB STATE, not a 1 State Solution so you , again I tell you, need to research your position.

Does it bother you that only wackos take your line of thought? No offence but that is the reality of it. I mean, to get ex-communicated by Satmar (I know you have no idea who THEY are) really means you are out of the loop in the Jewish World.

Israel has a Jewish Character, it does not place Jews above anyone else in either religion OR culture. Again, you do not seem at all disturbed by the fact that many of the world's 25 existing Arab Nations do not even allow a Jew to transit their airports. To you this is not an issue but Israel, with a 20% Arab minority holding full and equal rights (actually not true because they have EXTRA RIGHTS) is...go figure...

TP: "Israel should also have inverted commas/quotation marks.": No, not at all. the State of Israel legally exists, "PAlestine" NEVER EXISTED. The State of Israel is only in contetion with deluded people. The so called "WB" and Gaza are in contention because the only nation to have ever existed there is a Jewish Nation.

While many different Peoples can be called "Palestinian," as was my father, only Israelis can call themselves Israeli. It is pretty simple really. Israeli is not a fictitious term. "Palestinian" is.

 

[Gmart]

G: I have already told you about Neteuri Karta as well as speaking about them at length in this forum. They are a bunch of wackos...

Funny how you concentrated on a group of no great importance in preference to the point in the second sentence, which was far more relevant. I wonder how long it takes you to actually read the words and think...

Still you chose to ignore the actual words I wrote, so here they are again:

After all it reeks of preferring one religion over another, or one race, which is an archaic idea with no place in a modern world of course.

The rest of the world is just waiting for you to work this out. It's almost like waiting for the savages to stop fighting before civilised man can reason his way forward...

Fine, engage in ethnic cleansing since you seem so keen. That's much more reasonable than compromising the words you seem to attach such importance to.

Why is a 'Zionist State' so important to you?

No one goes for a pure race anymore. The time has come to mate with the barbarians...

Are we not good enough for you?

Violence begets violence.

If violence results, then a resolution must be found through thought and compromise. It's called being civilised; putting away the tools of war and compromising... It would save you years of further conflict you know...

In fact, you could let yourself be invaded... it would not stop the existence of your community.

You have won on pure numbers.

Now for heaven's sake stop acting like savages before it is too late for apologies...

 

[T & P]

TP: "Israel should also have inverted commas/quotation marks.": No, not at all. the State of Israel legally exists, "PAlestine" NEVER EXISTED. The State of Israel is only in contetion with deluded people. The so called "WB" and Gaza are in contention because the only nation to have ever existed there is a Jewish Nation.

While many different Peoples can be called "Palestinian," as was my father, only Israelis can call themselves Israeli. It is pretty simple really. Israeli is not a fictitious term. "Palestinian" is.

Ficticious in which way? Because the direct descendants of people who have lived in the same area for millennia look to me a lot more real than an almost brand new nation (in historical terms) that was created out of thin air overnight by displacing hundreds of thousands of its original inhabitants and parachuting Europeans in, and which has had to support its artificial existence by the use of force, illegal occupation and wars virtually throughout its entire (albeit short) history.

Now, me and countless others actually prepared to accept that Israel and Israelis exist without having to resort to the use of cheap inverted commas, but let's not pretend the half-century-plus intervention by Israel to prevent the official creation of Palestine makes the Palestinians any less real.

Do you also put the words Occupied Palestine or Occupied Terrirtories between inverted commas? Or, as the extreme zionist fundamentalists out there tend to do, call them 'Disputed' Territories instead?

 

[nino_savatte]

Israel has a Jewish Character, it does not place Jews above anyone else in either religion OR culture. Again, you do not seem at all disturbed by the fact that many of the world's 25 existing Arab Nations do not even allow a Jew to transit their airports. To you this is not an issue but Israel, with a 20% Arab minority holding full and equal rights (actually not true because they have EXTRA RIGHTS) is...go figure...

Really? So why do many Israeli-Arabs feel like second class citizens? Have you ever heard of the phrase "institutional racism"?

 

[rachamim18]

G: "Funny how Rachamim concenbtrated on G's words on N. Karta and not G's 2nd sentence...": I would think you would take a different opinion since I paid attention to all you posted. So you say now that only some of what you post is worth reading? Why bother posting it then?

All the more curious when I DID reply to ALL your points, including THAT 2nd part you talk about. Notice how I talked about Israel's "Jewish character?" You accuse me of not understanding your words, I fear you do not even understand your words. Go back to my preceeding post and look at the 4th paragraph? Ahhhh, now you see it.

"Savages fighting , waiting for civilised men to step forward.": When your "civilised" European ancestors were living in mud huts, buring peat, and sacraficing their children my "savage" ancestors were bring ethical monotheism to the world, the basis of your Western Law (I cannot wait for someone to chirp about Hammurabi), and many other innovations too numerous to mention.



"Why is a Zionist State so important to Rachamim?": First and foremost because non-Jews do not let Jews live as equals. in every single nation we have ever lived in we have been incredibly brutalised and that includes England and the US. Only in our own ancestral homeland are we truly able to live as humans.

Above and beyond that, it helps to preserve our incredibly ancient culture and way of life.

"There is no such thing as a pure race.": So? Who said there was? Race only exists in the anthropological sense. It is a fallacy anyway. We Jews come in eveyr colour and every physical type under the sun. Culture is independant of "race."


"G asks 'Are we not good enough for you'?": I did not realise you were "Palestinian.": Israel, AGAIN, has an almost 20% Arab minority. i am fine with it. Why does the PA consider Jews buying houses in their land a death pnealty crime? Why does HAMAS abar Jews from even living in Gaza upon pain of death? Are WE not good enough for THEM?

Tell me, are you in support of the UK allowing each and every person who wants to, moving to the UK and doing what they want? Your question is ridiculous.

"Israel can allow itself to be invaded because it has won on pure numbers.": Yeah. I mean, we ARe a nation of just over 6 million surrounded by 220 million Arabs and literally more than 1 billion Muslims so why not? I mean 6 million trumps a billion any day of the week, right? The world according to G...

 

[rachamim18]

TP: "How are 'Palestinians' fictitious'? ": There has NEVER been a nation called "Palestine." There has NEVER been any Arab nation anywhere enar the land in question. There HAS been Jewish Nations there though...

" ('Palestinians') Descendants of Peopole who have lived on that land for a millenia...": Except they are not. About 6% of "Palestinians" ARE directly descended from Jewish converts. We know this from DNA and Chromosomal Analysis, Y Modalities, etc. Roughly 11% are directly descended from Arabs who came as conquerors in the Islamic Advent 1300 years ago. The rest? Almost all are direct descendants of Arabs who migrated to these lands in the last half of the Ottoman Era, and of them almost all came in the last 150 years. There are entire villages who have but one or two generations on the land. Just since Oslo I more than 330,000 Arabs have illegaly migrated to these lands.

"A new nation, fictitious, created over night from thin air.": Israel was REestablished in 1948. however, the land has only ever housed Jewish Nations (in terms of non-extinct Peoples). Dig under ANY Arab home and you find eons, 4500 years of Jewish history. Ma'sah'sah? Herodium? Nazaret? Bet'l'chem? Cave of the Patriarchs? "Western Wall?" Capernum? Tibeias? Safed? Hebron?

At no time in the lands history was it bereft of Jews. Jews never surrendered their sovereignity. not when Rome conquered it, not when Arabs conquered it. Arabs are just another invader, another stranger on our land. My favorite thing to do at home is to take my metal detector out in the so called "WB" desert. The "WB" of course is actually named Judea and Samaria. JUDEA. JUUUUUUUUUU...as I said earlier to another poster. Not ARABIA. JUDEA. Out in the desert I always dig up Jewish artifacts. No how many Arab artifacts I have found? NOT ONE. That of cours eis not conlusive of anything but it is indicative of the general truth.

Arabs do have time there. However, almost all have nothing but a couple of generations and even the most ancient Arab lineage arrived when Jews already had 2 millenia on the land.

"Displacing hundreds of thousands of its original inhabitants.": They are not girinal, but if you mean they were living there when Israel was created, some were. Fact is, the total number of refugees numbers less than 400 odd thousand and that includes the land now called Jordan, Gaza, "WB", and Israel Proper. From Israel Proper the actual number is only 290,000. Of that number, guess how many were repatriated AFTER 1948? Just about 290,000 although to be honest this last number includes those returning to the so called "WB" and Gaza so that not all have returned. However, they were afforded 3 separate opportunities (1949 Armistice, Lausanne Concilliation Negotiations, and Kin Reunification Program - that last one taking place over a 20 year period). Those that opted not to were offered 10 million US dolalrs in 1950 dollars and accepted. It was paid out in 1953.

Almost all left by their own volition although admittedly they were pressured in most cases by Arab "leaders." 11 villages were PEACEFULLY ethnicallyt cleansed by Israel (still it was wrong and it should be considered a crime if the Statue of Limitations does not interfere), and one village suffered atrocities (albeit in ways that have been grossly over represented).

I do not know what you mean by "parachuted" because of course that never happened although I suspect you are only using a turn of phrase. As for "Europeans," it is of no consequence because Jews from Europe are just as Jewish as Jews that never left the land. However, until the influx of Jews from the former USSR over the last decade the vast majority of Israelis were Middle Eastern Jews. You obviously confuse the issue of the early Israeli Govt. with the issue of demographics. One has no bearing on the other although they should have in the sense that Mizrachi (ME Jews) were under represented in those early days.

"Artifical existence." Of all Mid-Eastern nations only Israel is NOT artificial. EVERY SINGLE Arab Nation is a modrn fiction with no realtion to history. Israle on the other hand is a direct cultural descendant of the ancient nations that stood on that land. Not even Egypt can make that claim. I will also remind you that the UN ratified Israel into existence and that this existence is protected by International Law as legal and just. Arabs have 25 nations plus Gaza and the so called "WB." Interestingly this does not seem to be an issue with you.

"Illegal Occupation.": WRONG. illegality is determined in a court of law, not minority public opinion.

"Wars.": Yes, each one directly resulting from Arab aggression. Israel cannot control who attacks it.

 

[rachamim18]

TP: "TP and others are prepared to accept Israel's existence.": No offence, but who cares? You neither permit nor prohibit a thing in that regard.

"Israel has worked against creation of a 'Palestinian State'.": Israel's direct predecessor was the Yishuv. The Yishuv agreed in 1919 to peacefully coexist with an Arab Nation (the word "Palestinian" was not yet used of course) that was to encompass more than 70% of the total landmass and which included the vast majority of arable land. ARABS REFUSED. Israel has agreed to every single International mediated plan for "Palestine," while "Palestinians" have refused each and every one of those plans until Oslo I and after becoming party to Oslo I and II violated both agreements . Ergo, you are wrong on every count raised in your post up until now.

"Does Rachamim also place the phrases 'Occupied Territories," etc. in quotation marks?": Nope. I do not use the word "Occupied" because it is non-sensical. Study International Law and then you will see just why Israel has never even been charged on anything, let alone anything to do with Gaza or the so called "WB." Contention? It surely is, and I do not consider myself an extemist but I would not even use THAT adjective. I prefer YESHA as an acronym, or in English, their actual names, Judea and Samaria: Land of the Jews and the Samaritans. See the word Arab or "Palestinian" anywhere near there?

 

[rachamim18]

Nino: "Why do so many Israeli-Arabs feel like second class citizens?": I had not realised you had taken a poll! Oh yeah, that is right! You have NEVER been there so how would you know? Let me help you on this one. The last poll taken in this regard? Found 85% of Israeli-Arabs in the target group (performed by a "Palestinian" newspaper that hates Israel) would not live in "Palestine" even if it weas fully independant and they could make decent livings.IF they are indeed maltreated, why do they opt to live in Israel? In fact, Israeli-Arabs enjoy the HIGHEST standard of living of any Arab group anywhere in the Mid-East.

Have I hear of Institutional Racism? Sure, you have it in your UK, enjoy. Until 350 years ago my People could not evne live there. Anti-Jewish violence is on the rise there...and of course in Israel we all learn about the Jews of York. After all, what do you expect from the land that produced that bigot Shakespeare? Anything else?