dennisr
the acceptable face
It was quite interesting. Do you think it's possible to continue.
* waits hopefully*
good luck - meet poster, poster meet brix *runs away*
Mass Strike on 24th April
- Thread starter mutley
- Start date
good luck - meet poster, poster meet brix *runs away*
dennisr
the acceptable face
you mean your mate - the bloke who scabbed himself on the last few strikes?
(don't bother answering that question)
dennisr
the acceptable face
Oh dear
Sorry about my role on this thread brix ... unfortunately any potential discussion involves dialogue and you won't get that from the folk i've just been having a go at
these two have caused every single thread on strike movements or related for many, many months to go the same way - derailed into the cul-de-sac of their own tedious personal disollusion - sort of virtual 'passive agression' - hence my response to them on this thread.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
dennisr
the acceptable face
So sorry to spoil the circle-jerk hyperbolic, hollow-triumphalist party.
and equally sorry to spoil your illusion that anyone else thinks you have anything positive or useful to say.
OK, last word for you...
Well, I haven't exactly contributed much to the discussion, have I? So it's not really fair of me to have a go.
But it is a shame when these discussions break down. I'm genuinely really interested in this. Have become much more active in my union (the NUT), have taken on an officer's role in my local division, and am hoping to continue to build support for the strike on the 24th among my colleagues. The joint action with other unions is very heartening - what I'm interested in particularly I suppose is how we continue to build. Hence my question about why only certain sectors of the PCS are coming out on the 24th.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
..and I've just this minute heard someone saying the polltax was a good thing! THAT'S the sort of thing I have to deal with day in, day out!
Oh for fuck's sake someone DO something!
Oh for fuck's sake someone DO something!
So sorry to spoil the circle-jerk hyperbolic, hollow-triumphalist party.
Not that you probably care, but I'm really interested in what you have to say too. You've been asking about how to deal with people not turning out on strike days and that's something I need to deal with. How do you motivate people who are scared/apathetic/selfish/lazy/weak/disinterested etc. to come out? Why is the idea of solidarity so unfashionable?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Indeed! Answers on a postcard! The main answer as I see it is there are still too many maggie-worshipping, individualistic, ass-pirational, corporate-ladderclimbing SCABS that form a majority of the membership in various workplaces.
dennisr
the acceptable face
I think Guinevo's reply earlier in the thread is probably the best reasoning behind the approach the PCS are taking - better to gt what forces you know you can out rather than any hollow (and ultimately disillusioning) call for all out action (based on the assumption they know what their members are willing to go for at the present).
I imagine the PCS leadership are hoping to see the developing stategy for further action (rather than a one-day strike 'to let off steam') by the other unions (especially given the other union's previous role when the PCs were pushing for united action in the recent past). Union members are not stage armies that can be made to simply take serious action at the drop of a hat and the call of their leaders - whatever those leaders may feel is the necessary course of action. The PCS is in an awkward situation with different sections of the membership of the union having very different levels of willingness to take such action. i can only assume they are basing their tactics on the weighing up of these factors.
Good luck with the 24th action. lets hope we see it developed
Added: re your question about solidarity be unfashionable - its a good question and there is no simple solution to rebuilding confidence. I imagine, the present PCS leadership, as an example, have had to deal with that self same question themselves over the past few years. They have had to regain control of the union after a long, long period of very-right-wing control - where many branches had no active membership at all after years of compromise and sellout. i don't imagine that is easy. Firstly to win the leadership at all - but then to keep that leadership. In effect they have to re-build at a branch level - a layer of shop-floor activists from the ground up. I imagine from new, younger members rather than the more jaded, longer-term card-carriers. I'd like to find ot more about how they are doing this - it would contain lessons for all TU activists who are facing a similar re-building of shop floor activity. I
In the NUT I was impressed by the visible and, I think, significent new layer of new young members on the demos in london a year (or was it longer? - can't rightly remember...). I hope that is beginning to be replicated in the union branches?
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Don't know why I bother but...
poster, I explained to you on another thread how some of us are doing things.
What are you doing?
poster, I explained to you on another thread how some of us are doing things.
What are you doing?
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Banging my head on a brick wall mostly. Like I have been doing for 20 fucking years.
Like I said, I've just heard someone defending the polltax - and it's not an uncommon view.
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
It's a cry of despair. I really don't know what can be done when you get people defending the polltax or maggie thatcher (still!).
And I agree with you! But, as I see it, we HAVE to find ways to engage with people who are disillusioned for one reason or another. Being antagonistic and calling them scabs (whether they are or not is a separate issue) is not going to engage them. Rather it is more likely that they will take the 'easy' option and go into work. Hence it can't be the answer. IYSWIM.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I'm truly at a loss, tbh. It seems to me like it's all been tried and failed with certain areas. Goodness knows what the answer is. What really annoys me is the widelspread reluctance to face up the fact that this is happening in a lot of areas. There's a whole culture of "don't mention the mass scabbing".
Thank you to you, Guineveretoo and KJ for your responses.
When you talk about other unions not supporting PCS in their call for united action are you talking about the NUT? I don't know all the background to this. Have only been teaching 4 years and prior to that I was working in a part of the private sector where there was no union activity whatsoever. I've become more and more active over the last four years since I have been teaching. Actually, a key moment, was seeing Mark Serwotka talk at the NUT conference last year. I was really impressed by him and he was the first person I heard, I think, mooting the idea of collective action between the unions.
The solidarity question is one that I spend a lot of time mulling over. I'm 36 so spent my teenage years under the shadow of Thatcherism. However, I've never known words such as 'solidarity' to have such low value as they do now. I find it depressing working among teachers (who were traditionally supposed to be left-wing weren't they?) and finding that they consider to me to be some kind of mad-leftie when I'm actually very mild, I think. I don't mind being considered a 'leftie' at all - that bit is true. But I'm not mad, just interested in working with my colleagues to get a better, fairer deal for all.
I think there is a new younger group of teachers coming into the profession. But I'm finding many of them disturbingly apathetic. Some are great and have been brought up to be politically aware, but many are quite disdainful of the idea of working collectively and shun union activities. I find engaging that group the hardest of all
dennisr
the acceptable face
I don't agree with him - my experience is very different - maybe its the sector he works in?
It is NOT because most folk are 'right-wing' or 'individualistic' that they do not have the level of confidence to carry out collective action. People are scared, they have been cowed, they do have everyday burdens (such as mortgages and debt) that make the simple act of withdrawing their labour a very serious decision that is not taken lightly and they do have crap union leaders that have never supported let alone led decisive action (its all 'compromise', 'partnership' and direct debits for the union subs for many of the mid-level and older leaderships of the unions) - so, in effect - many people don't even have the simple experience of strike action. We have to re-lean even that.
The press is no more right-wing, nor the politicians - its about people having to re-learn collective action by their own experience - which means people will be forced into initial action by that inevitable 'cut to far.
What they gain (not just in terms of material gain) from that experience will depend on the newer union activists who are not compromisers - the ones who will have to defend and/or win what they can with less confidence to back them up in the meantime to carefully builds up trust and confidence so that other folk can then feel they are able to take another step and another step each time.
Well, we have to find ways to engage, don't we? And while I take your point about people scabbing, do you take my point about how we perhaps have to look beyond that, grit our teeth (eek, mixed metaphors), and find a way to communicate effectively with these people. If we don't I'm not sure we can make significant progress. The main power we have is that of numbers.
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I'm 36 so spent my teenage years under the shadow of Thatcherism. However, I've never known words such as 'solidarity' to have such low value as they do now. I find it depressing working among teachers (who were traditionally supposed to be left-wing weren't they?) and finding that they consider to me to be some kind of mad-leftie when I'm actually very mild, I think. I don't mind being considered a 'leftie' at all - that bit is true. But I'm not mad, just interested in working with my colleagues to get a better, fairer deal for all.
I think there is a new younger group of teachers coming into the profession. But I'm finding many of them disturbingly apathetic. Some are great and have been brought up to be politically aware, but many are quite disdainful of the idea of working collectively and shun union activities. I find engaging that group the hardest of all
That is EXACTLY my experience (and I'm not a teacher). I'm in my 30s as well, and I've never seen a strike that that I've been involved with that had majority-participation: majority-scabbing has been what I've expereinced every single time.
I get called an out-of-touch lefty at work, too. On here I get called rightwing. Work that one out.
Actually I can see both of your points. Where I work some people have been cowed; they are genuinely frightened. There are others though, who do just appear to be quite selfish, and not really interested in working with others for the greater good. It's too much effort, they're alright, why should they bother, etc. So I think there are two separate groups.
Engaging the former is easier, I think, because although they're frightened, you are at least usually preaching to the converted. Once enough people are involved in the action they feel more able to take part because they feel a level of protection is afforded by the numbers of people involved.
The 'I'm Alright Jack' brigade are a much more difficult group to reach. But we need to reach them somehow because our strength will lie in numbers. HOW to reach them though? How to get past that selfish, individualistic attitude which is, I am sure, a legacy of Thatcher...
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
I do see what you mean and I go through patches where I agree with your type of view about communicating and building bridges ... and other days (like today) where I just loose my temper with all the simplistic, reactionary ("the polltax was good, wasn't it?" FFS!) crap I have to wade through every day while the trot left deny it's even a problem. It just seems like NO progress is EVER made in some areas nomatter WHAT is done (namely any place I've ever worked) and nomatter what happens, nomatter how bad it gets, the "wildebeest mentality" sets in and I hear people even supporting and defending management attacks on their own conditions. I even heard some fuckwit defending their own payfreeze once.
Now, I wish I could say these people were the minority - but they aren't! Whenever there's a management attack on our conditions in my workplace, I know with a certainty (that's invariably confirmed) that most people will just wholeheartedly support it and cheer it on.
ETA: I agree with your other post too. How do we reach out to thatcherist-minded people in the workplace? Especially where they form the majority?
glenquagmire
Rightwing NuLab apologist
Evidence please of a Trotskyist denying scabbing is a problem.
There are times when I dispair. But the collective action on the 24th is a really promising sign that there has been or may be a sea change. Yes, there could be more people involved, but that is a glass half-empty approach. The fact is that it's a big achievement to get that many people out at the same time and, if we can make it a success, it will mean that it will be easier to get more people out next time.
For the first time in ages I feel like there may be some hope
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
There are times when I dispair. But the collective action on the 24th is a really promising sign that there has been or may be a sea change. Yes, there could be more people involved, but that is a glass half-empty approach. The fact is that it's a big achievement to get that many people out at the same time and, if we can make it a success, it will mean that it will be easier to get more people out next time.
For the first time in ages I feel like there may be some hope
We'll wait and see just what the takeup is on the ground. And that means throwing away all the trot rags that will trumpet it's "solid", "massive" success - nomatter what the turnout. I wish I had grounds to have faith in your opimtism, but I see no reason to expect anything other than the same fucking washout as usual.
dennisr
the acceptable face
Serwotka of an excellent Gen Sec from my point of view. I think his thing has always been to push the idea of a Public Sector Alliance. The main 'other' union they were pushing for joint action with - due=ring the pensions dispute (where - eventually the PCS went it alone) was UNISON, but also the NUT. I imagine he would be wary of simply calling out his members if this latest round is just a one-day 'letting off of steam' by other union leaders without a strategy to esculate the action. The won some huge consessions (a backing off by the government) during the pensions dispute - but could have a achieved much, much more (nationally - for working people as a whole) if they had not been isolated and deserted by the likes of the UNISON leadership
I can't speak for the PCS leadership of course - its just an opinion based on the fact that i am quite confident they are doing whatever they are doing for the right reasons and based on a good knowledge of the actual mood of their own members.
- it is funny how a moderate individual simply standing for what you think are commonly accepted 'rights' gets labelled as an extremist nowadays. We've had some huge defeats and a servile union leadership for a long time "wait until labour gets elected..." they tell us and then we get more of the same - in fact worseI think there is a new younger group of teachers coming into the profession. But I'm finding many of them disturbingly apathetic. Some are great and have been brought up to be politically aware, but many are quite disdainful of the idea of working collectively and shun union activities. I find engaging that group the hardest of all
Thats an interesting comment - and a worrying one. I can only hope it is not showing up a general trend - that your situation is an exception rather than a rule. I can only speak from the outside re teaching (quite a few friends have ended up re-training as teachers over the last few years) and the limited experience of seeing self-selecting new activists on a few demos. There is. certainly, an 'anti-political' mood - an antipathy towards all politics. But my impression is that it is a contradictory one. Alongside that is a complete lack of illusion in 'establishment' - including 'politics'- thats not all negative - but it does reflect a lack of confidence including in the ability to change courses set by others and/or to have one's own influence over events. A sence of 'powerlessness' - that mood will cause a strong reaction in one direction or another at some point
But people can be quite sheep-like, can't they? If enough go in one direction the rest follow...
We need to talk up the 24th so that people start to feel like they're being left out of something if they're not invloved. If we go round saying, what's the point, people are less likely to want to become involved.
I understand your point of view, but it won't engage people.
dennisr
the acceptable face
There are times when I dispair. But the collective action on the 24th is a really promising sign that there has been or may be a sea change. Yes, there could be more people involved, but that is a glass half-empty approach. The fact is that it's a big achievement to get that many people out at the same time and, if we can make it a success, it will mean that it will be easier to get more people out next time.
For the first time in ages I feel like there may be some hope
Thats a sound view on it - I think a healthy one
poster342002
PROPER leftwing socialist
Yes, but getting even a significant minority to start that process has been impossible in my experience.
Been there umpteen times without it having the hoped-for effect. You talk up, talk up and talk up - and everyone just humours you (or looks at you like your some sort of tabloid-cliche "red loon") and on the day everyone prances into work as usual while you and a couple of reps stand outside looking quite clearly like there's no backing for your action.
I am so heartily SICK of this scenario it's beyond words.
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