mass murder and no general discussion?

[GarfieldLeChat]

Why have you failed to point out that those maps are out of date? The situation has changed since then.

i gathered first the dates on them would incidate their time period and also highlight that as per the origninal agreements which established the 100% sas approved state that it also established the other state of palestine unless you are attempting to say the nakba isn't relevant any longer...

talk about historical revisionism.

so let me get this striaght first you issue a liable of inferred Judeophobic but fail to back it up then it's misprepresenting geography with cleverly dated maps and finally that the historical context and central core issues aren't important.

what next Sas the old Palestinians aren't a real people why don't they fuck off back to arabia ...

still waiting for you to post up or retract mr wriggle...

 

[Sasaferrato]

sorry but there is no justification for this appalling aggression whatsoever. you can make all the excuses you want, it does not change the factt, that the palestinians are living like shit ... and are being bombed out of house and home, and forced to break into other countries, for a few rockets that have a habit of not going off and being completely useless ...

A (zionist) mate of mine's uncle lived in one of the border towns and one day a rocket landed on his roof, and it just fell to the ground, and didnt do anything, it didnt even work ... so there you go ... wow, how deadly they are ...

I'm sorry but someone needs to do something! I can't believe the Israeli government justifies this, I know it's not all Israelis ... it makes me want to throw up how they can treat people in this manner! I am Jewish but there is no way i can support israel any more when its doing this! I mean how dare they do this to children, and people who have not done anything wrong, apart from have the misfortune to live in an area that has been radicalised to support hamas terrorists, by Israels own actions ...

since 9/11 there has been a growing threat of anti-semitism, some of it from critics of Israel, some of it just good old fashioned hatred, but how does that equate with what has happened? how many palestinians have died in the last five years, with how many israelis? im sorry but the world has changed since world war 2 and now we're living completely differently!

I'm jewish btw in case anyone accuses me of being anti-semitic. I wonder where our values have gone recently though, I mean we are so willing to do other things for social justice, but not have a problem with Israel ... and Im including myself in this btw, im guilty of this as anyone ...

My mum went to the gaza strip in the 70s and was completely shocked at how they lived, and the situation is obviously a lot worse now! I mean compared to how small Israel is, which is about the size of Wales, look how small Gaza is. Its been going on for years and years and its just getting worse and worse, and nobody does anything, we - the jewish community, and the so-called "civilised" west ... let them get away with their shit ... again and again and again ... how far will they go before someone says that its enough and they have to be stopped? they have to do something and stop makeing these excuses for it!

The history of Israel, how it was set up and how the British ruled it before 1948, is really, REALLY fucking dodgy, you don't even want to go there ... I mean one of the main architects of it was an anti-semite and openly admitted the only reason he was supporting it was because he didn't want to have Jews living in Britian!

I support Israel's right to exist but honestly i mean i don't think many people who don't live in israel, or who don't have relatives there, would be that upset if Israel ceased to exist to be honest. i have relatives there, and i obviously don't want israel to cease to exist as a state, but i think im in a minority in this country. how many people would feel like that, how many people honestly feel that what Israel is doing is justified, when they actually look into the issue properly?

A lot of Jews and Israelis know what is happening is wrong but they have a sense of loyalty towards it, they dont want to say that its wrong because they're scared of promoting something anti-israel or anti-semitic ... they are too scared, or guilty, to criticise it publically, and im not condemning them at all ... because of religious ideas of solidarity ... and i'm not trying to criticise them because that's how i felt until very recently as well ... but i honestly feel now that israels actions promote anti-semitism in the world, as well as bringing shame upon jews, and the entire western world that just sits back and allows this to happen ...

I take it that you saw the news pictures the other day of the rocket which had gone through a reinforced concrete roof, then exploded.

You are being extraordinarily disingenuous in your assessment of Palestinian weaponry. The link below disagrees with you somewhat.

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm

 

[ymu]

The British Army practices for battle in built up areas, I would imagine that every army in the world does. Hardly a surprise.

No, but then the post wasn't saying that the IDF uses ugly battle tactics. It was saying that parallels with Kristellnacht, the Warsaw Ghetto and Nazi politics are rather apt, given the views of many senior IDF officers and Israeli politicians and a worryingly large % of the Israeli population.

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Garf, that is utter shite. Every post that you have made shows your support for the Palestinian side of the conflict.

then you'l;l be posting up for my unequivical support links won't you wriggler...

did you perhaps get injuried during your service which has destoryied your lingusitc lexicon refference....

now those links son...

 

[Deareg]

No, we didn't. It was of course a completely different situation.

The Israeli government's response is escalating in the face of escalating attack.

Tell me, if you were PM of Israel, would you stand by whilst rockets fell on your population?

the first thing i would do is give back all the land we stole

 

[frogwoman]

No, we didn't. It was of course a completely different situation.

The Israeli government's response is escalating in the face of escalating attack.

Tell me, if you were PM of Israel, would you stand by whilst rockets fell on your population?

If you were the leader of Hamas what would you do, your sons just been killed, you're under constant attack, you're under the threat of being assassinated by Israel all the time, you are constantly humilated by checkpoints and so is everyone else, who are always asking you to do something about the situation ... loads of people have no food, or anything ... and if you have grown up in a country where half of the population has been dispossessed from the land, and where any backing down on your part would lead to someone killing you from your own side, what would you do? would you say, "oh i don't think it's a good idea to fire those rockets any more, people?" and be "rewarded" with either another israeli assassination of people in your family, with nobody recognising your efforts (I seem to remember Hamas had a ceasefire for about 18 months, which nobody took a blind bit of notice of) or being murdered by your own side for being a traitor and too soft, what would you do then?

 

[Sasaferrato]

i gathered first the dates on them would incidate their time period and also highlight that as per the origninal agreements which established the 100% sas approved state that it also established the other state of palestine unless you are attempting to say the nakba isn't relevant any longer...

talk about historical revisionism.

so let me get this striaght first you issue a liable of inferred Judeophobic but fail to back it up then it's misprepresenting geography with cleverly dated maps and finally that the historical context and central core issues aren't important.

what next Sas the old Palestinians aren't a real people why don't they fuck off back to arabia ...

still waiting for you to post up or retract mr wriggle...

You fail to make a coherent point Garf, I am happy to debate, if you put something up that is worth the candle.

 

[frogwoman]

I take it that you saw the news pictures the other day of the rocket which had gone through a reinforced concrete roof, then exploded.

You are being extraordinarily disingenuous in your assessment of Palestinian weaponry. The link below disagrees with you somewhat.

http://www.weaponsurvey.com/missilesrockets.htm

How is it disingenuous if someone I know, who supports Israel actually told me this?

 

[frogwoman]

From your link:

Aharon Etengoff, editor of WeaponSurvey, served in the Photography & Film and Public Relations Departments of the IDF Spokesperson's Office from January 2003 to March 2004. His publications include:

So an IDF PR outfit in other words ... what makes him qualified to talk about this?

tells you all you need to know .

 

[ymu]

No, we didn't. It was of course a completely different situation.

The Israeli government's response is escalating in the face of escalating attack.

Tell me, if you were PM of Israel, would you stand by whilst rockets fell on your population?

The PM of Israel knows very well how to stop the attacks. It's just not politically expedient.

I'm often in Balata refugee camp, and I want to believe that Israel believes that its actions are going to stop resistance but they have to know that they are making the situation so intolerable that non-resistance is a non-option. There were no suicide bombers from Balata until May of this year. In May there were assassinations of two young men who were Palestinian fighters, members of the armed resistance. For the people in these camps, these fighters were heroes who were defending their people. It was 4 days after these assassinations that a wave of 7 suicide bombers came from Balata.

The oldest of these bombers was eighteen.

The operations were poorly organized. Many of them blew up on the way, failed in their missions. They were obviously acts of pure desperation. The Israeli Army knows they can't stop attacks like these. Arafat certainly can't stop them.

But there is one thing that can stop them. Hope.

In the first intifada, tens of thousands of Palestinians marched for an end to occupation. There were some bombings-but Palestinians stopped them. When Prime Minister Barak wanted to have elections in an atmosphere of quiet, he got his quiet by lifting the siege and opening up a few roadblocks. That was all it took.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=2730

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

Really?

How interesting.

And this is evidence that your are not partisan?

As I have said before, no rockets, no reprisals. Hamas, for whatever reason, is making dialogue impossible.

really so they should just accpet uopposed the attacks and regular incursion into their nation by a forgine invader in order that the forgine invader then stops their invasion.

tell me sas if you are so sure of this why did the Isreali govt not make a deal with Fatah in the 2 years of cease fire which was only recommenced after contiuned attacks and state sponser murder of incredable manginttude what attacks would you say were responsible for the bombing of a family on the beach the regular illegal building and the settler incusions, the still contiuning dispossetion and intimidation. the litany of pages and pages filled with crimes against the Palestinian people during that time?

oh so that would make am ockery of your stupid partisan an bigotted claim wouldn't it. not only does having a recourse to history but also fact save me once again but highlights the inspid nature of your 100% support.

Again, as I have said before, force will not solve this, unless the UN chooses to occupy the whole area and impose peace.

the UN is already there you doult and do nothing as they never would do, something you should well know as an ex squaddie...

I do not rate Palestinian lives less highly than Israeli lives, Hamas does though. The actions of Hamas have exacerbated an already bad situation.

the actions of the democratically elected goverment who had all ti's funding stolen by the israeli state as punishment to the palestinian people for choosing the wrong government after they elected with no real peace process left to resume the actions of the PLO (which is the platform Hamas stood on not as you'd no doubt wish so you'd have another stick to beat them with any islamic one). You say that they have exacerbated and already bad situation.

also can you name these Hamas rocket squads too. In fact name one in current opperation. just one. you know so little about the situation you beleive the hype son, the brigades might be afilliated with poltical parties but recent bombings and rocket attacks aren't directly by hamas you muppet. you don't even understand the basic infrastructures in Palestine or Israel for that matter...

Unlike you, I try and view this objectively, albeit from the perspective of a soldier rather than a civilian.

no you don't you haven't the first idea about the stuctures or the place... you wouldnt psot up such shit if you did...

Incidentally Garf, you accused me in an earlier post of being a coward. I have served under fire in NI and in the Falklands, may I have details of your service?

you are a coward i'm afraid so you took the shilling and served in an occupationary force which instilled and maintained a regieme of domination over sovergin peoples who your queen your milatary had puirposefully dispossed for their own gain and you are proud of that...

awr bless.

but then i guess squaddies were never all that clever you don't need intelligent cannon fodder do you.

I dont' want to argue with you you seem like a nice bloke but you are so totally out of your depth here and making all kinds of rash stupid minded statements with no and i mean no recours to history or to fact.

i'd even take you out there if i thought it would open your eyes (and close them again as the tear gas rained down).

 

[GarfieldLeChat]

sorry but there is no justification for this appalling aggression whatsoever. you can make all the excuses you want, it does not change the factt, that the palestinians are living like shit ... and are being bombed out of house and home, and forced to break into other countries, for a few rockets that have a habit of not going off and being completely useless ...

A (zionist) mate of mine's uncle lived in one of the border towns and one day a rocket landed on his roof, and it just fell to the ground, and didnt do anything, it didnt even work ... so there you go ... wow, how deadly they are ...

I'm sorry but someone needs to do something! I can't believe the Israeli government justifies this, I know it's not all Israelis ... it makes me want to throw up how they can treat people in this manner! I am Jewish but there is no way i can support israel any more when its doing this! I mean how dare they do this to children, and people who have not done anything wrong, apart from have the misfortune to live in an area that has been radicalised to support hamas terrorists, by Israels own actions ...

since 9/11 there has been a growing threat of anti-semitism, some of it from critics of Israel, some of it just good old fashioned hatred, but how does that equate with what has happened? how many palestinians have died in the last five years, with how many israelis? im sorry but the world has changed since world war 2 and now we're living completely differently!

I'm jewish btw in case anyone accuses me of being anti-semitic. I wonder where our values have gone recently though, I mean we are so willing to do other things for social justice, but not have a problem with Israel ... and Im including myself in this btw, im guilty of this as anyone ...

My mum went to the gaza strip in the 70s and was completely shocked at how they lived, and the situation is obviously a lot worse now! I mean compared to how small Israel is, which is about the size of Wales, look how small Gaza is. Its been going on for years and years and its just getting worse and worse, and nobody does anything, we - the jewish community, and the so-called "civilised" west ... let them get away with their shit ... again and again and again ... how far will they go before someone says that its enough and they have to be stopped? they have to do something and stop makeing these excuses for it!

The history of Israel, how it was set up and how the British ruled it before 1948, is really, REALLY fucking dodgy, you don't even want to go there ... I mean one of the main architects of it was an anti-semite and openly admitted the only reason he was supporting it was because he didn't want to have Jews living in Britian!

I support Israel's right to exist but honestly i mean i don't think many people who don't live in israel, or who don't have relatives there, would be that upset if Israel ceased to exist to be honest. i have relatives there, and i obviously don't want israel to cease to exist as a state, but i think im in a minority in this country. how many people would feel like that, how many people honestly feel that what Israel is doing is justified, when they actually look into the issue properly?

A lot of Jews and Israelis know what is happening is wrong but they have a sense of loyalty towards it, they dont want to say that its wrong because they're scared of promoting something anti-israel or anti-semitic ... they are too scared, or guilty, to criticise it publically, and im not condemning them at all ... because of religious ideas of solidarity ... and i'm not trying to criticise them because that's how i felt until very recently as well ... but i honestly feel now that israels actions promote anti-semitism in the world, as well as bringing shame upon jews, and the entire western world that just sits back and allows this to happen ...

good post.

I'd be happy to see both palestine and israel cease to exist if it meant one state one people.

hell like most palestinians at present I'd be happy to see Israel reduced to the 1967 boarders rather than being nonexistant i'd preffer to see Israel admit finally the Nakbah and return to 1947 tho

 

[Sasaferrato]

No, but then the post wasn't saying that the IDF uses ugly battle tactics. It was saying that parallels with Kristellnacht, the Warsaw Ghetto and Nazi politics are rather apt, given the views of many senior IDF officers and Israeli politicians and a worryingly large % of the Israeli population.

Indeed.

The only way out of this is a two state solution, and for that to happen there needs to be a redrawing of the current borders.

Jerusalem is a sticking point, I don't see Israel ever agreeing to share the city.

Most of the rest of the occupied land is land that Israel took in previous conflicts, conflicts where their neighbours were trying to annihilate them, the reason given, not necessarily accurately on the part of Israel, is the requirement for a buffer. The Golan was a case in point, ' required ' to ensure no surprise attack from Syria.

Israel needs to figure out what it wants here; it can either continue to ghettoise Palestine with the attendant rocket and suicide bomber attacks, or, it can sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate a settlement. Such a settlement will inevitably involve Israel handing back occupied land.

I can understand Israel's response to the rockets, I can also understand the perverse motives of Hamas in continuing to fire them. Hamas has not served the Palestinian people well.

The hysterical accusations of genocide, both on here and elsewhere are risible, Israel has the military power to wipe out Palestine any time it chooses. It will not happen.

The current situation in Palestine is an affront to civilisation, and should not be permitted to continue. The world is unwilling to commit the troops and money to solve the situation though, at least at present.

I am aware of what is happening in Israel through correspondence with a very close friend, we were at school together and have kept in touch. It wouldn't surprise me if some of you would recognise his name, he is called Fred Schlomka, Google him. He rebuilds what the IDF destroys. http://www.icahd.org/icahdukdev/eng/articles.asp?menu=6&submenu=2&site=UK&article=363

Yes, I am a supporter of Israel, that does not mean however that I blindly accept every action of the Israeli government as being beyond criticism. In truth, at present, there is a lot to criticise.

I return to my basic point, no rockets, no reprisals. At that point dialogue may begin.

 

[Sasaferrato]

good post.

I'd be happy to see both palestine and israel cease to exist if it meant one state one people.

hell like most palestinians at present I'd be happy to see Israel reduced to the 1967 boarders rather than being nonexistant i'd preffer to see Israel admit finally the Nakbah and return to 1947 tho

Would either side accept that? I have a feeling that both Israel and Palestine want to have control of their own destinies, and understandably so.

Israel has vacated some of the occupied land, which is a start, there is more to be done though.

 

[laptop]

Indymedia. The most biased news service on the face of the planet.

Did you even glance at it?

Special report: Palestine-Israel Relations

JERUSALEM, March 1 (Xinhua)

Do you know what Xinhua is?

No peeking.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Did you even glance at it?



Do you know what Xinhua is?

No peeking.

Yes, I did. I have found Indymedia in the past to be anything but independent.

A Chinese news service. ( With the assistance of Google. )

 

[ymu]

Indeed.

The only way out of this is a two state solution, and for that to happen there needs to be a redrawing of the current borders.

Jerusalem is a sticking point, I don't see Israel ever agreeing to share the city.

Most of the rest of the occupied land is land that Israel took in previous conflicts, conflicts where their neighbours were trying to annihilate them, the reason given, not necessarily accurately on the part of Israel, is the requirement for a buffer. The Golan was a case in point, ' required ' to ensure no surprise attack from Syria.

Israel needs to figure out what it wants here; it can either continue to ghettoise Palestine with the attendant rocket and suicide bomber attacks, or, it can sit down with the Palestinians and negotiate a settlement. Such a settlement will inevitably involve Israel handing back occupied land.

I can understand Israel's response to the rockets, I can also understand the perverse motives of Hamas in continuing to fire them. Hamas has not served the Palestinian people well.

The hysterical accusations of genocide, both on here and elsewhere are risible, Israel has the military power to wipe out Palestine any time it chooses. It will not happen.

The current situation in Palestine is an affront to civilisation, and should not be permitted to continue. The world is unwilling to commit the troops and money to solve the situation though, at least at present.

I am aware of what is happening in Israel through correspondence with a very close friend, we were at school together and have kept in touch. It wouldn't surprise me if some of you would recognise his name, he is called Fred Schlomka, Google him. He rebuilds what the IDF destroys.

Yes, I am a supporter of Israel, that does not mean however that I blindly accept every action of the Israeli government as being beyond criticism. In truth, at present, there is a lot to criticise.

I return to my basic point, no rockets, no reprisals. At that point dialogue may begin.

This post is a lot more reasonable and I agree with most of it. As you point out, the "buffer zone" argument is disingenuous nonsense - every cm of the Sinai was returned to Egypt, sans settlements, and it has clearly enhanced Israel's security. The difference with the West Bank and Golan Heights is that they are water rich. Israel won't give that up easily, and there is no possibility of two states if one is allowed to continue diverting most of the water.

I met Fred a few years ago in the AIC. Top bloke. Given that you do have the benefit of his perspective on what is happening, do you think it's at all realistic to expect Palestinians to put up with the situation, en masse and indefinitely? The majority of Palestinians participate only in non-violent resistance, but it's kind of inevitable that some will choose other means - it's insane to expect otherwise, whatever you think ought to happen.

 

[Sasaferrato]

This post is a lot more reasonable and I agree with most of it. As you point out, the "buffer zone" argument is disingenuous nonsense - every cm of the Sinai was returned to Egypt, sans settlements, and it has clearly enhanced Israel's security. The difference with the West Bank and Golan Heights is that they are water rich. Israel won't give that up easily, and there is no possibility of two states if one is allowed to continue diverting most of the water.

I met Fred a few years ago in the AIC. Top bloke. Given that you do have the benefit of his perspective on what is happening, do you think it's at all realistic to expect Palestinians to put up with the situation, en masse and indefinitely? The majority of Palestinians participate only in non-violent resistance, but it's kind of inevitable that some will choose other means - it's insane to expect otherwise, whatever you think ought to happen.

Major Western aid for desalination plants is essential, the area is not going to have increased water supplies any other way.

I don't have the answer to this, I don't think anyone else has either. The headline figures for deaths due to IDF action make the news, the ongoing daily death rate doesn't.

Both sides are dug in as firmly as the proponents in Belgium in WWI. For dialogue to begin it requires a measure of goodwill on both sides. It is difficult to see how this is to come about.

edited to add:

In general, I am reasonable. Garf is currently being ignored, not electronically but practically. If he decides to give up the hysterical hyperbole and resume discussion, I will be delighted to do so.

 

[weltweit]

I am afraid I grow news weary of this conflict, the news is always the same, the issues always the same, a long drawn out dispute with both sides antagonising further reactions with their every action. There needs to be something big to focus their minds on a solution but nothing seems to be coming along. I notice Tony Blair seems to have dissapeared in there, perhaps never to emerge.

I thought the lunatic option was good in the time of Sharon and Arafat, MAD, it worked between the USSR and the USA, why not between Israel and Palestine. I argued we should have given a short range powerful nuclear device to Arafat, Sharon already had his own. Then lock them and their entourages into a conference centre to talk, each with their own red buttons on the table in front of them, and not let them out until they had a solution for immediate implementation.

Then it was easier, there was just Fatah & Israel, now there is also Hamas there are even more voices trying to speak for the Palestinians.

So again the news comes in, inevitably, remorselessly more people are killed, children, women, it will never end unless both sides want it to and at the moment Israel has no desire for an end it seems to me. What was it one ONE Israeli killed by Hamas rockets and 100 Palestinians killed in reprisal, now it is not even an eye for an eye it is 100 eyes for an eye. Something is seriously wrong with this.

 

[Sasaferrato]

I am afraid I grow news weary of this conflict, the news is always the same, the issues always the same, a long drawn out dispute with both sides antagonising further reactions with their every action. There needs to be something big to focus their minds on a solution but nothing seems to be coming along. I notice Tony Blair seems to have dissapeared in there, perhaps never to emerge.

I thought the lunatic option was good in the time of Sharon and Arafat, MAD, it worked between the USSR and the USA, why not between Israel and Palestine. I argued we should have given a short range powerful nuclear device to Arafat, Sharon already had his own. Then lock them and their entourages into a conference centre to talk, each with their own red buttons on the table in front of them, and not let them out until they had a solution for immediate implementation.

Then it was easier, there was just Fatah & Israel, now there is also Hamas there are even more voices trying to speak for the Palestinians.

So again the news comes in, inevitably, remorselessly more people are killed, children, women, it will never end unless both sides want it to and at the moment Israel has no desire for an end it seems to me. What was it one ONE Israeli killed by Hamas rockets and 100 Palestinians killed in reprisal, now it is not even an eye for an eye it is 100 eyes for an eye. Something is seriously wrong with this.

When is there ever proportionality in conflict? The Russian use of barely human Eastern troops to rape Berlin into submission, was a war crime, or would have been had the history not been written by the victors.

Man's constant capacity for inhumanity towards their fellow man is profoundly depressing.

 

[laptop]

The Russian use of barely human Eastern troops

Quoted in case Sas realises he's just banned himself.

 

[laptop]

Yes, I did. I have found Indymedia in the past to be anything but independent.

It's not supposed to be independent in the sense you mean - which is "agreeing with you". It's supposed to be a channel for people to publish their own news.

A Chinese news service. ( With the assistance of Google. )

The Chinese state news service. So the angle it takes is rather highly significant and the simple fact that it has taken this line is as worthy of being republished on indymedia as it would be, say, here.

China - the state - says Israel is "preparing the world for war" - in other words for Israel to launch a war of colonial suppression.

China's hands are not, of course, clean.

But China's stick is big.

 

[Sasaferrato]

It's not supposed to be independent. It's supposed to be a channel for people to publish their own news.



The Chinese state news service. So the angle it takes is rather highly significant and the simple fact that it has taken this line is as worthy of being republished on indymedia as it would be, say, here.

China - the state - says Israel is "preparing the world for war" - in other words for Israel to launch a war of colonial suppression.

China's hands are not, of course, clean.

But China's stick is big.

Yes. But so is that of the US, not forgetting Russia of course, which has little love for China.

It is not a comforting thought really.

 

[editor]

When is there ever proportionality in conflict? The Russian use of barely human Eastern troops to rape Berlin into submission, was a war crime, or would have been had the history not been written by the victors..

"Barely human"?

WTF?

 

[laptop]

So, you see, Sas, you're not arguing with "indymedia" - especially since the entity doesn't exist in the sense you project onto it, which would be something with an editorial line.

You're arguing with the assessment of the state in China.

Oh, and with all those who oppose racism.

 

[goldenecitrone]

"Barely human"?

WTF?

http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0,,707928,00.html

Barely human acts would probably be a better phrasing. But sadly all too human.

 

[weltweit]

When is there ever proportionality in conflict? The Russian use of barely human Eastern troops to rape Berlin into submission, was a war crime, or would have been had the history not been written by the victors.

Man's constant capacity for inhumanity towards their fellow man is profoundly depressing.

I find the whole Israel Palestine issue very dissapointing, whether it holds a mirror up to the state of human behaviour toward fellow humans is perhaps a good question.

I wonder occasionally if I had been born there, would I be like them? like the Israeli settlers or IDF soldiers? or if born Palistinian, would I be in Hamas or Fatah? what would living in such close proximity to the conflict make me into?

Sadly I think had I/we been born there, we would be caught up in it in the same way as the parties to the conflict have been. There is no escape for them, and precious little light at the end of the tunnel for those in Gaza.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Quoted in case Sas realises he's just banned himself.

They used Mongol troops, who by any definition of humanity, were barely human in their behaviour. There were an estimated million rapes in Berlin in the first month of Russian occupation, this by uniformed troops.

 

[frogwoman]

When is there ever proportionality in conflict? The Russian use of barely human Eastern troops to rape Berlin into submission, was a war crime, or would have been had the history not been written by the victors.

Man's constant capacity for inhumanity towards their fellow man is profoundly depressing.

And that makes it OK does it. Oh because these things always happen in war then it's perfectly fine, so who gives a fuck? Are Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib all right then, because they'd do the same to us, or because things like that always happen and anyway the Russians used rape as a weapon so nobody else should complain? Of course Israel shouldn't be singled out for criticism you wouldn't give to any other country, but we shouldn't use other countries as an excuse for Israel not changing its behaviour, and in fact behaving worse than before.

Part of the reason I am so disgusted with Israel is because as a jew I believe it should be behaving better. I want to be proud of Israels place in the world, but look at the country, as it is today, and tell me honestly that i can be proud of a country like that, that since its inception has committed crimes against innocent people, that we are led to believe didn't happen (sound familiar??), or that they brought on themselves. You cant look at Israel if you're going to say that it is a country that behaves well and acts proportionately, even by Western standards (which are admittedly quite low) unless you're completely delusional. I feel completely ashamed, from being someone who was quite in favour of Israel at one stage. There isnt any way to justify what it's doing - not even self defence.

I agree that there isn't a genocide being perpretrated on the Palestinians. However there are definitely war crimes being carried out, which are unacceptable in any conflict - the forced removals to build Israeli settlements, the wall, Jenin ... it's not a "genocide" in the conventional sense but its completely one sided and wrong, and how long are we going to let it go on for ??

 

[weltweit]

... but its completely one sided and wrong, and how long are we going to let it go on for ??

But frogwoman, what exactly would you expect WE could or should do about it?