Marxist Film Director Peter Mullan blasts the SSP

[sevenstars]

Yes it is useful to hear querty here, especially as unlike me and Nigel you are living in scotland yourself

I want to give an an answer to one of Nigel's questions before stepping back from this discussion.

1) Is there a need for a revolutionary party, a party of a new (now quite old!) type in Lenin's phrase? I think that the example of the only succesful socialist revolution, combined with the negative examples of many revolutionary situations squandered by reformist or Stalinist leadership provides quite substantial evidence for that.

The Bolsheviks are the only organisation to lead a socialist revolution to a, albeit temporary, success. But the entire Russian left pre-1917 described themesleves as revolutionaries, against the Tsarist autocracy.

The key difference between the Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was which class would lead the revolution. As the Bolsheviks argued that only the working class could do this, even in a economically backward country like Russia, they built an organisation of uncompromising working class fighters.

It was this factor, rather than their program or discipline which led to their success. They had to tear up their old program in 1917 as events overtook it, it had organised factions at various points and even their central committe was publicly split in 1917.

The attempt to build Bolshevik type parties elsewhere in the world, neccessary as may have been after this, seems to have suffered from making a virtue out of some of the russian neccessities IMO.

My conclusion is that a socialist party like the SSP which bases itself on the working class and is uncompromising in leading the class struggle is indeed in the best Marxist tradition of the Bolsheviks, whether it takes a programmatic position on this or not

But this is also 2005 and we have to do more than rehearse these sorts of endless debates with each other, we also have to grapple with the practical issues in building this sort of party as they arise. This seems to me to be where the SSP is at the moment. I'm interested in hearing people views on this, living in England I only wish I was having similiar debates down here within a socialist party of the same stature of the SSP

 

[Donna Ferentes]

Finally Donna - Did I actually call you a reformist, or did I state that your arguments were for a reformist rather than a "broad party"?

'Twould be hard to fit a playing card in the space between the two.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

In reply to sevenstars, I am somewhat surprised that you draw a dividing line between the issue of which class would lead the revolution on the one hand and programme on the other. That was exactly an issue of programme, of politics! And a central one at that. And the Bolshevik's discipline was vital in ensuring that they could work to carry out that programme.

This may come as a shock to you but the Mensheviks also built an organisation of extremely brave working class fighters, as did the SPD in Germany and countless other organisations around the world. That wasn't enough then and it isn't enough now. For about the thousandth time in this thread, politics matter.

I do not accept that we are faced with a choice between either building an organisation of uncompromising working class fighters on the one hand or building a coherent, disciplined organisation with the right politics on the other. We need to do both! There is no benefit to being right if you can't influence events, although sometimes that is beyond your control. But equally there is no real benefit to having strength and influence in the working class if it used for the wrong ends and to push the wrong politics.

 

[sevenstars]

Neither shocked or suprised! Just trying to be concise. Best wishes

 

[pilchardman]

Just read this thread.

Good. Lord.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Getting back to Mullan's comments, it seems that the row just won't die. Rosemary Byrne (one of the SSP's MSPs) was quoted in last weeks Sunday Herald talking about a possible leadership return by Tommy Sheridan and being less than wildly enthusiastic about the Scottish parliament protest.

Then George Galloway decided to stick his oar in again, talking at the Edinburgh festival about the possibility of the SSP sinking without trace. In that eventuality, he added, RESPECT would have to reconsider standing in Scotland.

Neither of these interventions strike me as being all that helpful...

 

[Alan G]

As an aside it is worth noting that the first (relatively minor) restrictions on internal democracy in the SSP originated when the SWP joined, presumably because the leadership wrongly overestimated their strength and thought that they might be a threat. In so far as the CWI continues to grow I wouldn't be at all surprised to see proposals put forward to limit the rights of SSP members to act as part of a platform in the future, although I have confidence that the rank and file of the party will stand against such restrictions.

Like this unreached motion at the 2005 conference

Motion E8
Motion to change the constitution
SSP Platforms
Kelvin East

Constitution to be reworded as appropriate

Conference wishes to review the relationship of platforms to the overall functioning of the party.

Conference wishes to ensure that the work of platforms enhances the work of the party as a whole and that platforms are seen to be accountable and transparent in their activities.

Accordingly conference resolves that:

Party platforms will submit quarterly financial reports to the SSP National Treasurer. Such reports will give details of fundraising, members subscriptions, donations and items of expenditure, including sums spent on the salaries of part time and full time platform organisers.

Party platforms will pay a registration fee of £10 per member per annum, to SSP funds.

Party platforms are directed that no member should pay higher subscriptions to their platform than they undertake to pay to the SSP. Where such an occurrence is identified the platform organiser will be responsible for rectifying the situation.

Party platforms will be expected to meet regularly with SSP elected officials, such as National Convener, National Treasurer, National Policy Director, National Organiser (if the post is adopted by national conference) (at least quarterly) to review the contribution they make to the overall work of the party.

Party platforms are instructed that they must not engage in activity which effectively duplicates in terms of public activity the work of key party departments, for example party platforms must not appoint or utilise platform industrial organisers, when the party has its own workplace organiser.

Conference directs the national executive to prepare a report for the 2006 national conference on the relationship between platforms and the SSP and to consider whether it is appropriate for platforms to continue.

Thankfully it wasnt reached but when it comes up at the EC I asume the argument will be that there are platforms in the SSP, the SSP has been having problems, mainly increased due to media attacks week on week, therefore if there are no platforms there will be no/less problems.

I have heard this type of argument locally

 

[Dr_Evil]

Mullan is the only socialist i have ever had any respect for. Despite the fact that i am tangentialy opposed to his political views, he stands up for what he believes in and tells it how he sees it. None of the BS that the SSP or STWC come out with.

He would be a deserving champion of the people!

 

[Joe Reilly]

Then George Galloway decided to stick his oar in again, talking at the Edinburgh festival about the possibility of the SSP sinking without trace. In that eventuality, he added, RESPECT would have to reconsider standing in Scotland.
QUOTE]

But just how many Muslims are there in Scotland?

 

[sevenstars]

Glasgow has a significant Muslim minority, and one muslim labour MP.

Galloways comments on the SSP's demise are a disgrace. Whereas my feeling with Rosemary Byrne is more what on earth is she doing talking to journalists like this.

 

[Joe Reilly]

Glasgow has a significant Muslim minority, and one muslim labour MP.

Hold on a minute. There is a Labour MP who just happens to be a Muslim. That is something entirely different from describing him as a 'Muslim MP' surely? If indeed he stood as a 'Muslim candidate' it could almost be guaranteed he would not be elected. Even if he was, like Galloway in England he would be the only one. With zero prospects of further growth. So what would be the point?

 

[tollbar]

Glasgow has a significant Muslim minority, and one muslim labour MP.

Galloways comments on the SSP's demise are a disgrace. Whereas my feeling with Rosemary Byrne is more what on earth is she doing talking to journalists like this.

Galloway is due to speak at the SSP socialism 2005 event in october, if he appears things could get interesting as the non SWP elements in the party are baying for his blood over this.
Rosemary Byrne is a good regional list msp and puts in a lot of work but is probably not one of the most media savvy and is also very close to Sheridan. Given that the National Council of the SSP voted 88 to 2 in favour of the Hollyrood protests, backing Mullan in the media was fucking stupid.

 

[sevenstars]

Hold on a minute. There is a Labour MP who just happens to be a Muslim. That is something entirely different from describing him as a 'Muslim MP' surely?

I'm not sure we have a disagreement on this, perhaps its just my grammar.

The MP concerned, Mohamed Sarwar, doesnt have too many obvious principles and represents a constiuency where the muslim/asian population is concentrated - I doubt the Labour Party would have selected him to stand otherwise. He is apparently anti-war though, and George Galloway claims they are friends.

 

[tollbar]

Hold on a minute. There is a Labour MP who just happens to be a Muslim. That is something entirely different from describing him as a 'Muslim MP' surely?

I'm not sure we have a disagreement on this, perhaps its just my grammar.

The MP concerned, Mohamed Sarwar, doesnt have too many obvious principles and represents a constiuency where the muslim/asian population is concentrated - I doubt the Labour Party would have selected him to stand otherwise. He is apparently anti-war though, and George Galloway claims they are friends.

This is what makes Galloways remarks about Respect standing in scotland a bit odd. Galloway doesnt have a natural base amongst the Muslim community in Glasgow because of Sarwar. If Respect was going to launch in Scotland, their best bet would be to stand on the southside (main muslim area) in the local council elections. The advantage for them there would be that the next round of LG elections are going to be fought on a pr system, BUT they are in 2007, and Respect is pledged to give the SSP a free run until then. You might then think that Galloway is trying to woo over Sheridan, but the problem for Galloway is that Sheridan is now firmly on the nationalist wing of the SSP, which Galloway opposes, therefore, I suspect that damaging as it may be for the SSP, Galloways intervention might just be another case of George grandstanding.

 

[sevenstars]

therefore, I suspect that damaging as it may be for the SSP, Galloways intervention might just be another case of George grandstanding.[/QUOTE

Yes I think so too. No-one else in Respect is talking like this. Its the second time he has put the boot into the SSP at a difficult time though. My feeling is that he would like to have a political base in his home country, and knows that the existence of the SSP to his left will always deny him that.

I also dont think its the independence question that seperates him from us, I remember him in the 'Scotland United' days when we thought he was a nationalist. Its collective decison making and a workers wage that are beyond him

 

[tollbar]

therefore, I suspect that damaging as it may be for the SSP, Galloways intervention might just be another case of George grandstanding.[/QUOTE

Yes I think so too. No-one else in Respect is talking like this. Its the second time he has put the boot into the SSP at a difficult time though. My feeling is that he would like to have a political base in his home country, and knows that the existence of the SSP to his left will always deny him that.

I also dont think its the independence question that seperates him from us, I remember him in the 'Scotland United' days when we thought he was a nationalist. Its collective decison making and a workers wage that are beyond him

Yes indeed, I seem to remember that at the time of the Scotland United movement, Galloway was reported as calling for the formation of a "patriotic front".

One interesting development I heard of this morning though, was that the Glasgow Muslim activist, Robina Quarishi, of Positive Action In Housing, has announced that she is joining Respect, though as Respect has no branch in Scotland I dont know what this amounts to in practice.